Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[craner]

^ Why are they intent on submersing the new arena at Landsdowne ?

… Meanwhile out west:
Calgary arena deal signed, site preparation set to start this year
http://https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/calgary-arena-deal-signed-site-preparation-set-to-start-this-year-1.6590559

[blueandgoldguy]

I guess it's bye-bye Grey Cup in Ottawa. The new stadium will seat around 22,000 and there is nowhere to construct temp seats with the new arena being constructed in the spot for said seats.

[Hackslack]

Is the Calgary event center design going to remain the same as before the original deal was quashed? If so, was that design finalized?

[Harrison]

Originally Posted by craner

^ Why are they intent on submersing the new arena at Landsdown ?

… Meanwhile out west:
Calgary arena deal signed, site preparation set to start this year
http://https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/calgary-arena-deal-signed-site-preparation-set-to-start-this-year-1.6590559

All Calgarians that want a new arena should be kissing the ring of Danielle Smith lol

[ericmacm]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Huge downgrade of Lansdowne Park 2.0 in exchange for... a higher price tag.

Disappointing but I'm not really surprised. The green roof especially was doomed to get cut, lots of additional structural and operational considerations (more complicated irrigation/drainage infrastructure, structural design for potential pedestrian access and additional weight of soil/grass, ensuring vegetation doesn't grow through the roof membrane, etc), security/access issues, and high annual maintenance costs for what is functionally very little benefit. I'm still interested to see how this new arrangement will accommodate temporary seating.

I still think the buried/integrated arena is not a good long-term design and it should just be moved somewhere else instead.

[ScreamingViking]

Ugh.

Unsurprising though, re: Ottawa and Lansdowne 2.0 (or is it 2.1?... 3.0?)

I have no reservations the north stands need to be replaced, but this plan sucks and seems guaranteed to make money for the developers rather than anyone else. I've asked before, and I'll ask again... is there another viable site for a ~5,000 seat arena? Because as nice as it would be to keep it at that location, the overall plan seems very limiting in terms of the stadium's potential to host larger events (like a Grey Cup)

Fooled once, will the city be fooled again?

This coming from a jaded Ticats fan who sees his favourite team milking $$$$ out of a facility they didn't contribute toward in a meaningful way when it was built, but they had all their potential revenue angles covered and this is why we have the stadium we currently do. I like it, especially after almost 20 years watching games at dilapidated Ivor Wynne, but there's a reality to what happened when THF was built and in the years following and to me it doesn't smell very good...

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by elly63

Just my opinion, but to consider that, is a direct slap in the face to Quebec.

Not really, I see the NHL's appeal here, Atlanta has exploded since the NHL left in 2011

Atlanta's GDP when the thrashers 2.0 left compared to 2021

2011 (272,123.159)

2021 (473,823.474)

Average of 7% a year growth, That cities GDP is 20% larger than the entire province of Quebec

I would assume they figure they could make money if they didn't sell a single ticket.

Houston and Atlanta will be 33 and 34 if that happens, At the very least the front runners for relocation. Quebec probably sits somewhere between Milwaukie and Hartford, And the line is getting longer

[Oilkountry]

Ive said it before, Winnipeg killed Quebec's chance at the NHL.

Quebec is never going to see an NHL team because the jets are the model they will base it off and the model doesn't look great. Even at prime ticket prices, Sold out MTS Centre 2015 Jets, They weren't contributing or draining from the revenue share program But that was the best it will ever be in the peg. Now ticket prices are cheaper and the building is 90% full, but even packed im not sure how sustainable the team is long term.

Arguably Winnipeg is probably close to being priced out of it again without some sort of provincial/municipal further tax benefits and possible direct financial help.

Do I think they are leaving anytime soon? Nah they could lose 10 million a season and Thompson would shrug it off, Its when the evaluation of that team reaches a 1.5B+ and his kids inherit that team and start licking their lips, That's when people in Winnipeg should start sweating because lets be honest nobody is buying it to keep it in Winnipeg. I wonder what its gonna gonna look like in 15 years from now when the cap is 120M+. How is true north going to close that gap in a market that is seemingly tapped out today?

[Oilkountry]

Looks like Oct 10th we will find out what's in store for Scotiabank arena.

350M is big number when you consider the Rogers Centre budget of 300M. You got to think some structural changes to the arena bowl will be involved considering 150-200M would easily cover a complete renovation of every surface of the concourse, suites, and clubs. Nice to see MLSE reinvesting some of that naming rights deal back into the building, Hopefully this doesn't reflect on already steep ticket prices for leaf/raps fans.

To put it into perspective the renovation for State farm arena in Atlanta which essentially transformed the entire bowl design was 192M USD (260 CDN) this was a full arena reno. Granted that was 4 years ago.

Scotiabank Arena is about to get a $350 million makeover.

Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment (MLSE), which owns the arena and some of Toronto’s biggest sports teams including the Leafs and Raptors, made the announcement in a press release Friday.

“The $350 million investment and multi-phase renovation will feature capital improvements to almost all areas within the venue,” MLSE said.

ARTICLE CONTINUES BELOW

Everything from the arena’s clubs, shops, food and beverage spaces and concourse are undergoing some changes as part of the “Scotiabank Arena Venue Reimagination Project.”

The project promises “technological innovations” and renovations to the 100-level concourse, among other spaces.

MLSE said it will unveil more details about the changes on Tuesday morning.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by craner

^ Why are they intent on submersing the new arena at Landsdown ?

Originally Posted by ericmacm

Disappointing but I'm not really surprised. The green roof especially was doomed to get cut, lots of additional structural and operational considerations (more complicated irrigation/drainage infrastructure, structural design for potential pedestrian access and additional weight of soil/grass, ensuring vegetation doesn't grow through the roof membrane, etc), security/access issues, and high annual maintenance costs for what is functionally very little benefit. I'm still interested to see how this new arrangement will accommodate temporary seating.

I still think the buried/integrated arena is not a good long-term design and it should just be moved somewhere else instead.

The plan was for a green roof, but with no access to the public. The idea was to blend in the arena with the park. It was well thought out at the time. People asked if they could get access, City said they'd look into it. Now the green roof is gone.

Begs the question, as per Cranes, without the green roof, what's the point of having the arena built into the landscape? Maybe too keep part of the hill? It will be a shadow of its former self.

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

Ugh.

Unsurprising though, re: Ottawa and Lansdowne 2.0 (or is it 2.1?... 3.0?)

I have no reservations the north stands need to be replaced, but this plan sucks and seems guaranteed to make money for the developers rather than anyone else. I've asked before, and I'll ask again... is there another viable site for a ~5,000 seat arena? Because as nice as it would be to keep it at that location, the overall plan seems very limiting in terms of the stadium's potential to host larger events (like a Grey Cup)

Fooled once, will the city be fooled again?

Arena needs to stay at Lansdowne. The park is already not making as much money as predicted when It was planned over a decade ago, and losing the arena would be devastating to the bottom line. The arena with 100+ events is what keeps it going.

Not sure how Lansdowne will do better with a smaller arena, unless they double bookings of the venue.

Plan also called for a 1k seat music venue, which has now been scrapped.

That said, the City hasn't really explored the possibility of renovating the existing Civic Centre. I'd love to have seen such an option with a couple buildings on each side. The Civic Centre was designed by Raymond Moriyama , it hosted political conventions that made Prime Ministers, including Trudeau Sr. It welcomed the return of the Sens. It was the site of the first SOS Montfort rally (which saved the only francophone hospital in Ontario).

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

it hosted political conventions that made Prime Ministers, including Trudeau Sr. It welcomed the return of the Sens. It was the site of the first SOS Montfort rally (which saved the only francophone hospital in Ontario).

For that reason alone they should knock it to the ground

[thurmas]

Just renovating the north stands and arena seems to make much more sense as their integration works much better with the layout of the land and would probably be much cheaper too. I don't understand why Ottawa let both grandstands go to the point of being condemned and unusable for human use whereas much older stadiums never became that bad.

[ScreamingViking]

I can't speak about other stadiums, but in Hamilton's case there was just not enough local funding for a full renovation; small investments were made to keep Ivor Wynne viable but the city knew there'd come a day when big money would be necessary. It wasn't until the provincial and federal funding to build facilities for the Pan Am Games came along that anything could be done, and at that point a completely new stadium became possible.

And it was determined early on in the design process that it would not be possible to build "half" of a stadium to replace the older south side and renovate the existing north stands to meet modern standards and codes.

Had the Pan Am funding not become available, Hamilton would probably have been looking to do what Ottawa did, and been at the mercy of a development group. Bob Young and his partners wanted a stadium in a new location where they'd control surrounding land uses and create a "stadium precinct" (where they'd have control over profit from development)... I think that would have been the reality at some point had the Pan Ams not been hosted in the region.

If a full rebuild of TD Place's north stands could have a smaller arena beneath, maybe that's a better alternative than putting the latter at one end of the field? By the looks of the plan a huge excavation will be required. Though perhaps that will change yet again and the arena will be largely above ground -- without the grass on the roof, there's no open greenspace being preserved, so what would be the point of keeping so much of it below grade?

[JakeLRS]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

Looks like Oct 10th we will find out what's in store for Scotiabank arena.

350M is big number when you consider the Rogers Centre budget of 300M. You got to think some structural changes to the arena bowl will be involved considering 150-200M would easily cover a complete renovation of every surface of the concourse, suites, and clubs. Nice to see MLSE reinvesting some of that naming rights deal back into the building, Hopefully this doesn't reflect on already steep ticket prices for leaf/raps fans.

To put it into perspective the renovation for State farm arena in Atlanta which essentially transformed the entire bowl design was 192M USD (260 CDN) this was a full arena reno. Granted that was 4 years ago.

My guesses:
- addition of more suites, obviously, I wonder if they would go as far as to add another level of suites.
- increase seat capacity in the 301-305 sections (decrease suites in that area for increased capacity, or even turn the top part of it into a fan deck, which is growing in popularity.
- new seating… which will probably be all black (I really like how they stuck with the MLG seat colours all these years).
- a black facade upgrade in maple lead square (the plain black they did looks like absolute garbage)
- maybe they’ll adjust the press boxes somehow to fix the obstructed atmosphere view of the nosebleeds
- Nor sure if the old raptor facility is still in the arena in the 300 level, but maybe they’ll turn that into an exclusive club/bar
I really want to be excited, but I really like the classic feel of the interior of the arena.

[thurmas]

.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by JakeLRS

- Nor sure if the old raptor facility is still in the arena in the 300 level, but maybe they’ll turn that into an exclusive club/bar
.

I thought they already had but I can't find anything to say so. The Sher Club looks to have opened around the same time as the BioSteel/OVO Centre, so unless the Raptors used a temporary facility for the first half of the 15/16 season, that can't be what is there. The SBA site doesn't list any other lounges or clubs that fit the bill. But it's also been over 7 years now, so you would think MLSE would have found a use for it in that time.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Just renovating the north stands and arena seems to make much more sense as their integration works much better with the layout of the land and would probably be much cheaper too. I don't understand why Ottawa let both grandstands go to the point of being condemned and unusable for human use whereas much older stadiums never became that bad.

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

If a full rebuild of TD Place's north stands could have a smaller arena beneath, maybe that's a better alternative than putting the latter at one end of the field? By the looks of the plan a huge excavation will be required. Though perhaps that will change yet again and the arena will be largely above ground -- without the grass on the roof, there's no open greenspace being preserved, so what would be the point of keeping so much of it below grade?

When OSEG says "jump", local politicians ask "how high?"

OSEG came-up with this plan and presented it to the City, unsolicitated as far as I can tell (just like the first phase of Lansdowne). The City ran with it, without presenting citizens any alternatives, other than vaguely stating in a report renovations would be costlier.

I'd much prefer renovating the current facility. New towers could be built on each side if the Civic Centre. If a new facility is absolutely needed, having the same type if multiuse facility, with a smaller arena underneath (5k-6k) would be far better. Than smaller arena could resolve the awkward bowl and site line issues, while leaving more space for the retail and residential facilities.

The City's "all or nothing" project is quite problematic, and something they've done a lot (ex. packaging Stage 2 as one vote even though it's two projects).

[elly63]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

And it was determined early on in the design process that it would not be possible to build "half" of a stadium to replace the older south side and renovate the existing north stands to meet modern standards and codes.

Mitchell answers questions
Steve Milton theSpec.com September 1 2011

How can building new stands on the north side of Ivor Wynne Stadium not cost more than renovating the current ones?

And how can the significantly reduced seating capacity — from the original 25,000 seats to a reported 22,500 — not negatively impact the Hamilton Tiger-Cats’ bottom line?

Those were among the nagging questions after it was revealed last week that plans for the Pan Am Stadium on the current site of Ivor Wynne now call for the entire north stands to be torn down and rebuilt, instead of being refurbished atop the current infrastructure.

“This is absolutely and positively the most cost-efficient and responsible decision,” Ticat president Scott Mitchell answered Wednesday. “This isn’t a good thing, it’s a great thing.”

By agreeing to the reduced seat inventory, the Ticats made a major concession to Infrastructure Ontario to keep construction costs at the original estimate.

And, Mitchell says, potential builders will welcome the idea of constructing the north stands from the ground up, rather than trying to work around existing flaws, many of which are major.

“That’s 100 per cent accurate,” Mitchell said. “This creates cost certainty in the construction phase. You never know what you’re going to find out when you renovate. It might have involved all kinds of (capital) expense that wasn’t anticipated. And this prohibits the city from potentially having to spend tens of millions of dollars in maintenance of the north stands in the next few years.”

Additionally, having renovated north stands with uncomfortable bench seating and the same washroom and concession facilities as in the past would have meant that the Cats, and the city, were going to operate, in effect, two different facilities.

“What was clearly emerging was a have-versus-have-not scenario on the two sides of the stadium,” he said. “And that’s not conducive to effective cost management or a good in-stadium experience.”

[elly63]

Nice video, but yet again another in the endless list of lazy reporters who can only find the useless Moshe Lander as a stadium "expert". As a reminder this was the genius who said Halifax would be a 30-40k stadium

Is Montreal's Olympic Stadium worth saving?
cbc.ca October 17 2023

From an ambitious design that took a decade and a half to build, to the saga of the failing roof, Montrealers know the story of the Big O, or the Big Owe, very well. But despite its astronomical and ongoing cost, the story isn't likely to end.

[cranes]

https://www.therecord.com/news/water...ffd1bddc0.html
For $2.5M Waterloo will help bubble-wrap Laurier’s University Stadium for winter use
Sports dome at Wilfrid Laurier University will be taken down in warmer weather
By Jeff Outhit Record Reporter October 17, 2023

WATERLOO — Waterloo council said yes Monday to spending $2.5 million to help put a winter bubble over an upgraded field at Wilfrid Laurier University. The dome will be in place for about six months a year at University Stadium on Seagram Drive, extending use of the field year-round. The bubble will be taken down in warmer months. Work is to begin within weeks on installing footings for the bubble, which will not be operating this winter. It’s part of a bigger upgrade of stadium and recreation facilities at Laurier estimated to cost up to $100 million. Council voted 7-0 to spend the money in exchange for thousands of hours of community use at the field, in a mixture of prime-time and non-prime hours for the next decade.
...
The school’s final goal is to install a new grandstand for 6,000 spectators, a new athletic building and a new wellness centre. Timing for these upgrades is uncertain; future phases depend on further fundraising and approvals...

A rendering of the planned winter dome over an upgraded University Stadium on the campus of Wilfrid Laurier University.