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  #61  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2008, 12:19 PM
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You will find 95-99% of planners think it's sustainable and affordable (if not financially the wisest decision). The doubt becomes more expressed considering the possibility of oil peaking, but that's far from a show stopper. Sure, it's not the best way to build - but I'm afraid that you paint a rather simplistic picture. In any case, maybe we should meet up and chat so I can take you through the financial aspects of building a subdivision. You appear to know little about it.

Also, you should perhaps leave your attitude, bitterness, and hostility at the door. It is very off-putting and makes you appear rather juvenile.
no attitude here my friend.
Let's chat in 30 years and see how great Hazels heaven is doing.
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  #62  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2008, 4:21 PM
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Corbu-inspired vertical sprawl in a park == bad.
Hey, lay off Corbu! It's all Robert Venturi's fault.
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  #63  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2008, 6:24 PM
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It's all Robert Venturi's fault.
B-b-b-but neoclassicalism!
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  #64  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2008, 8:58 PM
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no attitude here my friend.
Let's chat in 30 years and see how great Hazels heaven is doing.
Yes, by that time Mississauga will have built out a real downtown core while in Hamilton, the Lister Block might finally be starting renovations.
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  #65  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2008, 9:20 PM
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Yes, by that time Mississauga will have built out a real downtown core while in Hamilton, the Lister Block might finally be starting renovations.
Zing!
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  #66  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2008, 9:20 PM
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Okay we've settled that most of us would never want to live in Mississauga (me included). It still doesn't change the fact that their mayor has done an excellent job of attracting businesses to the city and, in turn, made condo developments lucrative for developers. Can't Hamilton learn a lesson or two from this? Aren't we trying to rejuvenate the core by attracting business and high density residential development? Wasn't that the whole point of the article before people started criticizing left right and centre?
It's an absolute embarrassment that the Spec ran that article. To think we could learn something from a so called 'city' that has a suburban mall as its core and posts signs "no pedestrians" surrounded by 6-lane highways is somehow something to aspire to? is behind moronic. Hazel... go back to bed. A monkey could've done what she did in the last 30 years. All you had to do is let demographics and cheap oil let it take its course. Mississauga is not a realcity. So forget about anything Hazel says. She's an idiot that has somehow been given a title of someone who know how to build a city.

All Hazel is done is let land speculators do what they want. And now she has it. She'll be dead by the time the next mayor needs to clean up (in-fill) her mess.... if that is even possible given the amount of sprawl designated between highways.

I don't know about you -- but I wouldn't want to live in a 'city' with segregated blocks by 6-lane 80km/h highways as so-called 'roads'.
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  #67  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2008, 9:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Dundasguy View Post
Yes, by that time Mississauga will have built out a real downtown core while in Hamilton, the Lister Block might finally be starting renovations.
I will eat my shorts if Mississauga ever has a real downtown core. It's just not going to happen.
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  #68  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2008, 11:18 PM
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It's an absolute embarrassment that the Spec ran that article. To think we could learn something from a so called 'city' that has a suburban mall as its core and posts signs "no pedestrians" surrounded by 6-lane highways is somehow something to aspire to? is behind moronic. Hazel... go back to bed. A monkey could've done what she did in the last 30 years. All you had to do is let demographics and cheap oil let it take its course. Mississauga is not a realcity. So forget about anything Hazel says. She's an idiot that has somehow been given a title of someone who know how to build a city.

All Hazel is done is let land speculators do what they want. And now she has it. She'll be dead by the time the next mayor needs to clean up (in-fill) her mess.... if that is even possible given the amount of sprawl designated between highways.

I don't know about you -- but I wouldn't want to live in a 'city' with segregated blocks by 6-lane 80km/h highways as so-called 'roads'.


so true..she's a typical politician. screw everything up and then leave the mess for someone else (taxpayers) to clean up.
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  #69  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2008, 2:30 AM
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I will eat my shorts if Mississauga ever has a real downtown core. It's just not going to happen.
I'll raise you a shorts and add another.

It's not really a question of if but a question of when - 10, 20, 30 years? The plans are not a joke, and the city is preparing the necessary groundwork for making sure it has a proper mix of retail/residential/commerce. Add the provincial plan for GGH, and it's going to actually take quite a lot for the plans to die on the table.
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  #70  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2008, 2:51 AM
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I'll raise you a shorts and add another.

It's not really a question of if but a question of when - 10, 20, 30 years? The plans are not a joke, and the city is preparing the necessary groundwork for making sure it has a proper mix of retail/residential/commerce. Add the provincial plan for GGH, and it's going to actually take quite a lot for the plans to die on the table.
I'll take your bet. I know they're trying hard but sometimes the best laid plans don't work out in reality.

They have the obvious physical problems of scale (not very walkable) and accommodating huge amounts of vehicle traffic. Even with good transit ridership now and better transit on light rail in the future they will still have to have all those huge uninviting roads. But I think the real problem is cultural. A suburban culture and mindset will continue to dominate Mississauga. Lots of kids are growing up there and love the lifestyle and will continue with it as adults. It's not just a Mississauga problem, it's always been a small proportion of the population who grow up to favour an urban lifestyle into adulthood. They'll move to places where the urban lifestyle is already well established--I don't see what Mississauga could possibly do to attract the kinds of people that make urban areas vibrant. That kind of thing tends to happen organically.

I haven't explained this very well here but I'm preoccupied with the American election at the moment...
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  #71  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2008, 2:56 AM
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Originally Posted by salvius View Post
I'll raise you a shorts and add another.

It's not really a question of if but a question of when - 10, 20, 30 years? The plans are not a joke, and the city is preparing the necessary groundwork for making sure it has a proper mix of retail/residential/commerce. Add the provincial plan for GGH, and it's going to actually take quite a lot for the plans to die on the table.
Scarborough Town Centre has a great mix of retail/residential/commerce and isn't even close to looking or feeling like a downtown.
Downtowns aren't just created overnight. There's absolutely no way Missy will ever get one unless they scrap stuff like 'absolute', tear down the mall and start building a framework of urban streets with streetwalls. They aren't. They have 8 lane megaroads surrounded by sprawl, drive thrus and box stores.
Enjoy.
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  #72  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2008, 3:05 AM
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I'll take your bet. I know they're trying hard but sometimes the best laid plans don't work out in reality.

They have the obvious physical problems of scale (not very walkable) and accommodating huge amounts of vehicle traffic. Even with good transit ridership now and better transit on light rail in the future they will still have to have all those huge uninviting roads. But I think the real problem is cultural. A suburban culture and mindset will continue to dominate Mississauga. Lots of kids are growing up there and love the lifestyle and will continue with it as adults. It's not just a Mississauga problem, it's always been a small proportion of the population who grow up to favour an urban lifestyle into adulthood. They'll move to places where the urban lifestyle is already well established--I don't see what Mississauga could possibly do to attract the kinds of people that make urban areas vibrant. That kind of thing tends to happen organically.

I haven't explained this very well here but I'm preoccupied with the American election at the moment...
When the first condos went up in Mississauga what feels like an eon ago, everyone asked - for what market? Mississauga is all about getting a house you just cannot get in Toronto, isn't it? There is a market for an urban street in Mississauga.

No, it won't be Hamilton's core (some things are just impossible in this day and age). Yes, there's a lot of problems. It's anchored by a mall (the plan here is to open out the outside parts on to the street; it has worked and not worked elsewhere). It is surrounded by heavy traffic (this one has several alternatives, but it's likely it will have to work within certain constraints). Inadequate transit (high on the priority list for Metrolinx, however, and surveys and early impact study show that this area must be served more adequate). All true, but fixable. You are correct, however, that these things are also results of organic growth (I think; we'll see how successful downtown Markham is if it ever actually occurs in its planned form), but I do not think that suburbs are incapable of growing organically...
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  #73  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2008, 3:11 AM
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Originally Posted by raisethehammer View Post
Scarborough Town Centre has a great mix of retail/residential/commerce and isn't even close to looking or feeling like a downtown.
Downtowns aren't just created overnight. There's absolutely no way Missy will ever get one unless they scrap stuff like 'absolute', tear down the mall and start building a framework of urban streets with streetwalls. They aren't. They have 8 lane megaroads surrounded by sprawl, drive thrus and box stores.
Enjoy.
Scarborough is the chronically shortchanged, but there are some real differences between Scarborough and Mississauga. However, not much difference between STC and Mississauga in what they lack (except in that STC lack money for any meaningful change). STC is more adequately served by transit, but its problems are actually very similar. One problem they share is that, indeed, that they both lack streets with proper streetwalls. Mississauga indeed plans to go this route, in a new urbanist sort of fashion; also they are borrowing a page off the recent redevelopment of Waterloo's downtown mall - which has been extremely successful.
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  #74  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2008, 3:13 AM
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Scarborough is the chronically shortchanged, but there are some real differences between Scarborough and Mississauga. However, not much difference between STC and Mississauga in what they lack. STC is more adequately served by transit, but its problems are actually very similar. One problem they share is that, indeed, that they both lack streets with proper streetwalls. Mississauga indeed plans to go this route, in a new urbanist sort of fashion; also they are borrowing a page off the recent redevelopment of Waterloo's downtown mall - which has been extremely successful.
if Missy could get some new urbanist stuff like Waterloo or Markham/Cornell, it would be a step in the right direction, no doubt.
You're right though - it will never achieve a true downtown like TO or Hamilton etc.... if they follow the above models though, I'd at least give them full credit for trying to change their development model after decades of sprawl.
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  #75  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2008, 3:48 AM
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^ indeed, the planning department in Mississauga is trying to undo some of the damage (unfortunately, hard to assign specific blame here, except on the whole of planning profession in 1950 to 1970s+... and, at the time, they really didn't seem like horrible ideas). Here's the relevant "Cole's Notes" article.

'De-malling' Mississauga's core
Planners target pillar of suburban sprawl in grand transformation of city's downtown
Nov 04, 2008 04:30 AM
Phinjo Gombu


The transformation of Mississauga may just begin with the central artifact of suburban sprawl: the mall.

"De-malling," a hot trend in urbanism, involves transforming ailing, aging malls – of which Mississauga has its share – into something completely different: denser, mixed-use, pedestrian-friendly hubs with buildings where people "will linger, live, work and play," according to one consultant.

Planners in Mississauga presented their dream of reinventing these traditionally car-oriented destinations – while leaving surrounding traditional neighbourhoods intact – in a plan presented to city council yesterday.

Containing growth projections for the next two decades and beyond, the plan is predicated on provincial goals of curtailing sprawl and spending large sums on improving public transit across GTA. It's also prompted by the reality that Mississauga has no agricultural land left to build on, with the last several hundred hectares in the city's west end expected to be built over by next year, and that intensification is the only option left to grow.

There's no question tens of thousands of people are going to move into the so-called Urban Growth Centre that extends around the massive Square One Shopping Centre at the city's heart, all the way down Hurontario St. to the QEW.

That's the focus of a visioning exercise called Downtown 21 that wants to reinvigorate the core area, including building smaller city blocks and doing away with surface parking – another staple suburban convenience.

But what's generating excitement among planners is the idea of "community nodes" anchored by smaller, often tired shopping centres such as Meadowvale, Erin Mills, South Common and Sheridan, and at major intersections such as Dundas St. and Dixie Rd., that can become real "places" – just like Port Credit and Streetsville, established communities with their own vibrant street life. In place of vast hectares of surface parking around the mall, these nodes would sprout six- to 12-storey buildings and a commercial presence at street level to encourage walking and use of transit. Surface parking would be mostly eliminated.

Two major community nodes around central Erin Mills and the "uptown" area around Hurontario St. and Eglinton Ave. could have buildings as high as 25 storeys.

Mississauga planners Angela Dietrich and Paulina Mikicich acknowledge that the private sector still has to buy into the idea. But they think there is one ready-made market that could easily help populate these so-called "community nodes." That would be aging homeowners who have lived for decades in the sprawling residential subdivisions around the malls, but want to downsize as they get older without having to move out of the neighbourhood. What better place, they say, than to be near transit and in a setting less isolating than a single-detached home.

Younger families moving into the traditional homes nearby would also benefit from being close to transit- and pedestrian-friendly community nodes where they can take care of daily shopping and other needs. "We think it's a great option for (developers) to make more intensive use of their properties, as well as create a very desirable urban form," said Dietrich.

Planning is already underway to develop the street-level "look" of the new communities they envision. Planning commissioner Ed Sajecki said new planning realities are inevitable as the city transforms itself from suburban to urban.

"If we are going to spend billions of dollars on transit, we want to make sure that our land use and density policies are designed in such a way that it is transit-supportive," said Sajecki.

"A lot of Mississauga has been built on single-use development (residential areas for living, shopping centres for shopping) ... This is about mixed use along nodes and corridors."


Mississauga's growth plan projects an injection of about 100,000 more people into the city in the next 20 years, under provincial population targets.

Officials say the city can easily accommodate double that number, even triple, if the market demand develops and the province revisits its forecasts in the near future.

The kind of community they want to offer in these areas could be an attractive alternative to traditional suburban development, which may have been pioneered in places like Mississauga but today is acknowledged as unsustainable and a recipe for gridlock. The "de-malling" plan is an acknowledgement that what's been done can be undone, as Mississauga enters its second phase of development.

"You have to dispel the notion that Mississauga is built out," planning policy director John Calvert told councillors. "We're far from that."

----

Now, that doesn't actually mean Hazel has anything of use to say to Hamilton. Hamilton has a very different set of problems.
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  #76  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2008, 4:07 AM
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Looks like both Hamilton and Mississauga need to undo serious damage done in the past 30 years. All the negativity and defensiveness taken on by Hamiltonians in this thread speaks volumes about image... Hopefully both cities can achieve their goals of creating a sustainable downtown. The cities have different challenges but both are trying to find their way.
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  #77  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2008, 6:07 AM
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Originally Posted by adam View Post
Looks like both Hamilton and Mississauga need to undo serious damage done in the past 30 years. All the negativity and defensiveness taken on by Hamiltonians in this thread speaks volumes about image... Hopefully both cities can achieve their goals of creating a sustainable downtown. The cities have different challenges but both are trying to find their way.
When someone asks me what can Hamilton learn from Mississauga I just tell them nothing because Mississauga just lucked out being next door to Toronto and I still consider them to be a suburb of that city, plain and simple. I also think the wrong question was asked here. Instead of asking, 'what can we learn from Misssissauga?' the question instead should have been, 'What can Hamilton learn from Toronto?'
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  #78  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2008, 1:59 PM
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Originally Posted by adam View Post
Looks like both Hamilton and Mississauga need to undo serious damage done in the past 30 years. All the negativity and defensiveness taken on by Hamiltonians in this thread speaks volumes about image... Hopefully both cities can achieve their goals of creating a sustainable downtown. The cities have different challenges but both are trying to find their way.
how can Missy develop a sustainable downtown?? it's impossible. it would require such an infusion of money it would boggle the mind.
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  #79  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2008, 2:32 PM
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Originally Posted by salvius View Post
I'll raise you a shorts and add another.

It's not really a question of if but a question of when - 10, 20, 30 years? The plans are not a joke, and the city is preparing the necessary groundwork for making sure it has a proper mix of retail/residential/commerce. Add the provincial plan for GGH, and it's going to actually take quite a lot for the plans to die on the table.
Yes but it will always be a fake downtown. a contrived city core, like Disneyland.
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  #80  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2008, 2:35 PM
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exactly boomtown. We should be learning from Montreal and Toronto.
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