Hazel on Hamilton

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by yyzer

o.k.....so why all the hostility, raisethehammer??

I lived in Toronto for many years, in the Annex, Forest Hill, and Etobicoke, then my wife and I moved to Mississauga....after about a year of adjustment, I grew to love the place, and would never move back...

But wait....we have family in Hamilton, and visit there often....so are fairly familiar with the city...

Imo Hamilton and Mississauga are as different as night and day...

Hamilton - old, blue collar, economically depressed, mostly traditional anglo-saxon/European Ontarians, and if I may say, a bit desperate and fearful of missing out on the future - judging by some of the comments on this forum...

Mississauga - new, white collar, full of new immigrants especially Asian, economically booming, and definitely confident of its future...

The demographics are completely different...

Is Mississauga a real city? of course it is, but at 704,000 population, it is also one heck of a big suburb of Toronto....

Your comments about Hazel are completely wrong, and unjustified...if there is one mayor in the Golden Horseshoe who 'walks the walk' it is Hazel...she makes a habit of being right, is pro-business, and pro-development...so Mississauga was born in the 1970's....a time when ideas about 'progress' were different than today, and when 'urban sprawl' was hardly even thought of...she nevertheless has done a splendid job in building the city....I would take her any day over a bumbler like David Miller...

And let me tell you, pal...I have met Hazel on a few occasions, and she is really, really tough...raisethehammer,to quote an old movie, "she has got chunks of guys like you in her stool"....

I still like Hamilton, though....

I hope that koolaid tastes good bud.

we know Hazel walks the walk - that's my point. She's a sprawl queen who will go down in history as "that old bag of a mayor who didn't know what she was doing" by future generations of Missy residents who are held upside-down by their city council in order to find enough money to pay for all the infrastructure work.

The only thing tough about her seems to be the mega-wrinkles. Lol.

How anyone can look at what happened in Missy during her reign and call her a great mayor is laughable.
Anyhow, drink up...you seem to be enjoying it (I'd start saving money now for your skyrocketing tax future though).
Hey, on the bright side, at least her model of 'city' building hasn't resulted in any traffic problems in Missy. So you've definitely got an advantage there.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

these ones also rank high in the 'schlock' department.

I love the phrase 'mississuga city centre' Lol. A friggin mall.

If something like those buildings were to be proposed for Hamilton, you would be drooling.

[raisethehammer]

no I wouldn't. I've hated them from concept to rendering to construction.
I would be embarrassed to live in a city that feels the need to do cheesy 'imitations' of true world landmarks in a true world class city.

[Millstone]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

if Hazel wants to be honest about how her 'city' saw such growth, her advice to others should be "try to become mayor of a farmtown that is also home to Toronto's airport".

Done. End of story. Take the airport out of there and nobody would know who she is, or where her 'city' is.

"Toronto Pearson International Airport" does nothing to advertise Mississauga other than the Peel Police presence and the "you are in Mississauga" ad by the baggage claim.

[oldcoote]

Originally Posted by flar

Talk to me in 30 more years when all their nice shiny infrastructure is crumbling like Hamilton's and there is no longer double digit growth. Then we'll see how balanced their budget is.

BINGO!

[adam]

When rapid transit comes to town, should we turn away the cranes that want to build a couple modern tall condos and office buildings? Because that's what I'm getting from you guys.. Let me just say that would be a wrong decision for the city's economy.

[Jon Dalton]

One fact that should have been included in the article was that Hazel fought against the very creation of Mississauga. When that battle was lost she stepped up to make the best of the situation. I respect her accomplishments as mayor but her experience has little application in an established city like Hamilton.

I agree with her comments about diversity in industry, this is something Hamilton has failed in for decades. Mississauga is a powerhouse of industry - granted it was mostly handed to them from Toronto's growth, but Hamilton could have tried harder for a piece of that pie.

[ryan_mcgreal]

Originally Posted by adam

When rapid transit comes to town, should we turn away the cranes that want to build a couple modern tall condos and office buildings? Because that's what I'm getting from you guys.. Let me just say that would be a wrong decision for the city's economy.

Urban office towers and condos == good.

Corbu-inspired vertical sprawl in a park == bad.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by ryan_mcgreal

Urban office towers and condos == good.

Corbu-inspired vertical sprawl in a park == bad.

Lol. exactly.
I don't even like much of the new stuff built in TO these days, but I'd certainly take it over the crap being built in Missy.

[salvius]

Lots of offal spewed by self-righteous Hamiltonians who can't believe their city is being lectured by Mississauga. While it's questionable whether Mississauga can really offer any lessons to Hamilton, I do not understand the hostility.

Mississauga's taxes are higher because it actually does spend money on those pesky infrastructure costs. This myth that it is basically mortgaging infrastructure costs needs to die (and so does the myth that suburban development is unsustainable; unfortunately, far from... the only question is whether it is unsustainable in a true oil crunch situation, but even here the answer is not so clear).

Hazel is not to be blamed for the sprawl alone - Hamilton and its environs, like most places in NA (look no further than the wonderful sprawl 2 km west from my place in Toronto), have built plenty of it in the post-war period in and around its borders. Mississauga is a child of that age, but I do think it wants to grow up. Its fundamentals are fairly stable, and the planning department - though not the most stellar place on the planet - is intent on building a real downtown. It will happen. Not maybe tomorrow, or a decade, but the commitment is serious. It is getting plenty of second rate architecture, but that's not a killer. I think BCTed is also correct in his overall comment. Absolute Mississauga (obviously renamed Absolute Hamilton) would generate kudos up and down this forum if it was proposed. Take THAT Toronto would be coming out of the mouths of the forumers, I'm sure.

Hazel is generally off base in her comments about Hamilton, however. The airport will not generate that much spillover economic activity into Hamilton. Such studies were done in the past to evaluate the actual economic spillover effect in Mississauga, and the numbers aren't impressive. She is correct that Hamilton has to somehow latch on to the post-industrial jobs, but that's much easier said than done, especially in Hamilton, a city with serious infrastructure problems, an ineffective council, and a planning department that tries to be all things to all people.

[adam]

Good post Salvius. We have our work cut out for us here in Hamilton. But things are progressing, it takes time to build momentum.
I apologize for the posts you saw as self-righteous. I can understand why they were perceived as such. I would like to think Hamilton is a good enough city to see Mississauga's boom and learn from it, without compromising its own values.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by salvius

Lots of offal spewed by self-righteous Hamiltonians who can't believe their city is being lectured by Mississauga. While it's questionable whether Mississauga can really offer any lessons to Hamilton, I do not understand the hostility.


no hostility towards Missy....at least not from me. Mine is directed towards the media always pandering to one of the most inept, useless mayors in Canadian history.


Mississauga's taxes are higher because it actually does spend money on those pesky infrastructure costs. This myth that it is basically mortgaging infrastructure costs needs to die (and so does the myth that suburban development is unsustainable; unfortunately, far from... the only question is whether it is unsustainable in a true oil crunch situation, but even here the answer is not so clear).

this statement is mind-boggling. You and I need to go out for coffee sometime and chat. We could go for hours!! I'm not sure I've ever actually met a real-life person who doesn't think that sprawl is unsustainable and unaffordable. Lol.

[Boomtown_Hamilton]

Originally Posted by adam

Good post Salvius. We have our work cut out for us here in Hamilton. But things are progressing, it takes time to build momentum.
I apologize for the posts you saw as self-righteous. I can understand why they were perceived as such. I would like to think Hamilton is a good enough city to see Mississauga's boom and learn from it, without compromising its own values.

I honestly don`t think we have anything really to learn from Missisauga. Mississauga has grown plenty and good for them but to say they are getting all that growth and fortune 500 companies setting up shop there because of something that they are doing that Hamilton is not is where I draw the line. If Hamilton was right next door to the biggest city in Canada, which is also one of the fastest growing cities in North America and one of the wealthiest cities on the entire planet and have that city`s International Airport based in our city then we too would be experiencing the same type of growth and prosperity that they have been experiencing there the past few years. To say that all of this has happened because of Hazel is another area where I draw the line. The third area where I draw the line is one someone from the GTA comes on the Hamilton forum and tells Hamiltonians that Hamilton is an economically depressed city without having any solid facts or citations to back it up.

[salvius]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

this statement is mind-boggling. You and I need to go out for coffee sometime and chat. We could go for hours!! I'm not sure I've ever actually met a real-life person who doesn't think that sprawl is unsustainable and unaffordable. Lol.

You will find 95-99% of planners think it's sustainable and affordable (if not financially the wisest decision). The doubt becomes more expressed considering the possibility of oil peaking, but that's far from a show stopper. Sure, it's not the best way to build - but I'm afraid that you paint a rather simplistic picture. In any case, maybe we should meet up and chat so I can take you through the financial aspects of building a subdivision. You appear to know little about it.

Also, you should perhaps leave your attitude, bitterness, and hostility at the door. It is very off-putting and makes you appear rather juvenile.

[flar]

Originally Posted by Boomtown_Hamilton

I honestly don`t think we have anything really to learn from Missisauga. Mississauga has grown plenty and good for them but to say they are getting all that growth and fortune 500 companies setting up shop there because of something that they are doing that Hamilton is not is where I draw the line. If Hamilton was right next door to the biggest city in Canada, which is also one of the fastest growing cities in North America and one of the wealthiest cities on the entire planet and have that city`s International Airport based in our city then we too would be experiencing the same type of growth and prosperity that they have been experiencing there the past few years. To say that all of this has happened because of Hazel is another area where I draw the line. The third area where I draw the line is one someone from the GTA comes on the Hamilton forum and tells Hamiltonians that Hamilton is an economically depressed city without having any solid facts or citations to back it up.

While I agree with most of what you're saying, the fact is Hamilton is an economically depressed city. Like in other industrial cities in North America, Hamilton's industrial sector declined immensely and continues to decline. With that comes a huge loss in tax revenue. There has been nothing to replace that loss. You can point to growth in the health sector but that is
government and doesn't bring in the tax dollars like private industry. That leaves homeowners to bear the tax burden for the infrastructure of a large 150+ year old city. That's why the city is broke and can't do anything. That's why everyone is calling for Hamilton to diversify its economy. We all know that's what needs to be done, it's obvious. It's just not obvious or easy when it comes to actually doing it. American rust belt cities have had mixed results in their attempts to move to a postindustrial economy: some are doing well, others aren't. Their situations are closer to Hamilton's than Mississauga's and that's where we should look for solutions and advice.

[flar]

^^I should add, the corollary of that is too many Hamiltonians travel out of the city to work.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by salvius

You will find 95-99% of planners think it's sustainable and affordable (if not financially the wisest decision). The doubt becomes more expressed considering the possibility of oil peaking, but that's far from a show stopper. Sure, it's not the best way to build - but I'm afraid that you paint a rather simplistic picture. In any case, maybe we should meet up and chat so I can take you through the financial aspects of building a subdivision. You appear to know little about it.

Sustainable only if you put the big asterisk in the statement.

That asterisk is the notation that it sprawl is only sustainable if municipalities can annex adjoining farmland, because eventually all expanding municipalities run out of virgin development land.

[adam]

Many parts of Hamilton are creating sprawl right now. I don't like it, but to condemn Mississauga for sprawl while we are doing the same thing seems ridiculous.

[ryan_mcgreal]

Originally Posted by adam

to condemn Mississauga for sprawl while we are doing the same thing seems ridiculous.

Is it okay if I condemn both? :-)

[Boomtown_Hamilton]

Originally Posted by flar

While I agree with most of what you're saying, the fact is Hamilton is an economically depressed city. Like in other industrial cities in North America, Hamilton's industrial sector declined immensely and continues to decline. With that comes a huge loss in tax revenue. There has been nothing to replace that loss. You can point to growth in the health sector but that is
government and doesn't bring in the tax dollars like private industry. That leaves homeowners to bear the tax burden for the infrastructure of a large 150+ year old city. That's why the city is broke and can't do anything. That's why everyone is calling for Hamilton to diversify its economy. We all know that's what needs to be done, it's obvious. It's just not obvious or easy when it comes to actually doing it. American rust belt cities have had mixed results in their attempts to move to a postindustrial economy: some are doing well, others aren't. Their situations are closer to Hamilton's than Mississauga's and that's where we should look for solutions and advice.

flar,

I'm not saying here that Hamilton is the ideal city in which other cities should look to and emulate but on the other hand to tell everyone here that the city of Hamilton is an "economically depressed" one is a bit of a stretch in the other direction as well.

Hamilton's days as a manufacturing powerhouse is in the past and those days are never coming back. Furthermore, this is not a Hamilton problem this is a North American problem. You say that we need to diversify our economy and I believe that is happening already and its not just happening with the Health sector. When you look at the numbers posted up by Hamilton's Economic Development Department from 1996 to 2006 jobs in the Health sector rose 31%, Educational services 57%, Construction 78%, Finance, insurance & real estate rose to 19% and professional, scientific and technical sector rose 79%.

Now don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying that we are perfect in Hamilton. There are many things that we can still do to improve. One of the things I really like that we did this year was to have an Economic Summit and I'm hoping that this becomes an annual event here in Hamilton and as well where they also involve not just members of the business community but regular everyday folks like us as well...a good example of this to use would be the round table discussions we had here earlier this week with members of Metrolinx.

The other area in which I feel that we lack in is I don't think the city of Hamilton does a good enough job of promoting itself. I just think that whether or not you are a business or a city like Hamilton you can never do enough to market or promote the city. We clearly need to do a much better job in this department.

Having said all that we have many great things here in Hamilton that is the envy of a lot of other cities around the world like our booming Waterport, a booming air cargo business at the Airport, a world class university like McMaster, the many great hiking trails, waterfalls and natural wonders that surrounds us and our close proximity to the Canada-U.S. border.