Saint John and St. John's... Confusing?

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by someone123

For St. John's there's less of a clear founding date but it also wasn't really a city in the 1700's and earlier. Some forms of development would have happened first in St. John's (streets and buildings being used into the future), others in Saint John (urban institutions and infrastructure created after the Loyalists arrived). The Loyalists were advanced, had a bunch of expectations around how they wanted things to be run, and developed NB quickly.

Very accurately stated. There was already a seasonal settlement here in 1583. As early as the 1520s (for example, the first letter sent from North America to Europe in 1527, from St. John's) there were already many nations (mostly Basque, Breton, Portuguese, etc.) with seasonal structures here. 1506, I think, is the first reference to "dozens of ships" in St. John's harbour.

But this wasn't a colony like the ones that came in the first years of the 1600s. Lots of fishing rooms, and flakes, and whatever else, but almost no building with even a place to sit, let alone live. Water and Duckworth streets were well-established as Upper and Lower paths before any white person slept overnight onshore in St. John's

[SignalHillHiker]

Goddamn ****ing new pages. Bumping this as it's part of an interesting discussion on the previous page:

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Canada:
City of Montreal
Island of Montreal, an island in the province of Quebec
Greater Montreal, the metropolitan area of Montreal
Montréal (region), an administrative region and statistical area in the province of Quebec
Montreal Metropolitan Community, a supra-municipal level of government
Montreal Agglomeration Council, a supra-municipal level of government
Montreal Urban Community, a former supra-municipal level of government
Montreal River, Ontario, a municipality
Montreal River (Algoma–Sudbury, Ontario)
Montreal River (Timiskaming District)
Montreal River (Saskatchewan)
Montreal Lake (Saskatchewan)
Montreal Island (Nunavut)

France
Château de Montréal, Dordogne
Montréal, Ardèche
Montréal, Aude
Montréal, Gers
Montréal, Yonne
Montréal-la-Cluse, Ain
Montréal-les-Sources, Drôme
Villeneuve-lès-Montréal, Aude

Jordan
Montréal (Crusader castle)
Lordship of Montréal or Oultrejordain

Spain
Montreal, Catalonia

United Kingdom
Montreal Park, a park where Geoffrey Amherst had his residence

United States
Montreal, Missouri
Montreal, Wisconsin
Montreal River (Michigan)
Montreal River (Wisconsin-Michigan)


How many people have been confused about the fact that Vancouver, BC is NOT on Vancouver Island (which I have heard some people call "Victoria Island")?

[Architype]

I see people are answering the poll purely from their own perspective.

For anyone not familiar with Eastern Canada, of course it's confusing!

There is also St. John's, Antigua.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Jo...ua_and_Barbuda

St. John must have been a popular guy.

[SignalHillHiker]

PEI used to be St. John Island, didn't it? Or maybe Anacosti or Magdalen or one of those ones over there.

[MolsonExport]

Lloydminster, Saskatchewan
Lloydminster, Alberta

[Architype]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Lloydminster, Saskatchewan
Lloydminster, Alberta

And they don't even have a river between them, just a line somebody drew, unlike Ottawa Ontario, and Ottawa Quebec.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

PEI used to be St. John Island, didn't it? Or maybe Anacosti or Magdalen or one of those ones over there.

St. John’s Island actually. It wasn’t renamed to PEI until 1798.

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by Architype

St. John must have been a popular guy.

The Feast of St. John the Baptist is essentially a Christianized version of the Summer Solstice, which happened to coincide with the beginning of the fishing season.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

The Feast of St. John the Baptist is essentially a Christianized version of the Summer Solstice, which happened to coincide with the beginning of the fishing season.

Thanks. Yes, I've heard of that, and in historical context too. I was raised protestant UC, so less aware of that, it's more a Catholic and Anglican thing. St. John's actually has two Cathedrals of that name, the RC one was elevated to Basilica status in 1955. The Basilica is oriented to face both the summer sunset & winter sunrise during solstices.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Sainte (Ste.) Catherines (Famous Montreal Street).
Saint Catharines (Ontario).

Confusing? Nah. But hard to remember the correct spelling for the latter.

Is this your way of saying Saint John and St. John's is confusing? Or do you only bring up things related to Quebec and Montreal?

oh, and sorry, Lloydminster, SK/AB ... which isn't really that confusing at all, it's a single municipality on two sides of a provincial border.

St. John's and Saint John would be more like if there was a Fort McMurray, AB and a Ft. McMurray's, MB which were both notable for their oil and gas industries, and all the "newfies" from Saint John, New Brunswick moving there for jobs in the oil patch.

keeping the parade of digressions, I'm surprised no one has brought up Love City yet, Saint John, the smallest island of the US Virgin Islands.

Pretty good example of how two places with the exact same name cannot be easily mistaken or confused with each other, while two places with incredibly similar names and similar general locations often can be.

No one is confusing Portland ME and Portland, Oregon. No one is confusing Sydney, Nova Scotia and Sydney, Australia. But Canadians are absolutely still confusing Saint John, NB and St. John's, NL.

If Saint John had instead went a step further and named it "Saint Jean" after Champlain's 1604 discovery, instead of the "giant leap" from St. John->Saint John, perhaps there wouldn't remain so much written communications confusion between the two SJ's, outside of Atlantic Canada.

I don't think many people would be confusing Saint Jean, NB with Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, PQ, as they're just not as similar places as Saint John, NB, and St. John's, NL are, despite the closer distance between Quebec and New Brunswick.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by lio45

From a Western point of view, St. John's and Saint-John are quite interchangeable.

Ask your current Saint-John friends, if you moved to Saskatoon or Regina, would it matter much which one exactly? It's the same to them.

For a real example, Kamloops and Kelowna are easily confused by people in Eastern Canada, I'm sure (even I did it at first!) We have a family friend who relocated to Kamloops, but he might as well be in Kelowna as far as we're concerned.

Saint John and St. John's are quite a lot different from each other, and extremely separated from each other, despite many people's assumptions that they might be close to each other or easy to get between.

Kamloops and Kelowna are a 2 hour drive away from each other, while Saint John and St. John's are basically a full 24 hours drive away from each other, over 1700km including a ferry and a drive across almost the entire island of Newfoundland.

I'm from Western Canada myself and think Kamloops and Kelowna are confusing, especially since I've never been to either, and only heard about them. Yet, despite how different and far from each other St. John's and Saint John are, the fact that they are both coastal cities in Atlantic Canada is enough to cause to confusion to many outside the region.

I've always found it surprising that the country with the longest coastline in the world only has 1 or 2 big coastal cities, depending on your definition of big. After Vancouver, Halifax, and Victoria, St. John's and Saint John are the fourth and fifth biggest coastal cities in Canada. Which i think is part of what adds to the confusion, some basically similar geography.

[craner]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Not only is there a New Brunswick, New Jersey, there is also a New Jersey, New Brunswick!!!

^Now that is cool !

Might be a bit surprising that there are over 20 “Moscows” in the USA, including 2 in each of Alabama, Ohio & Wisconsin.

I find keeping the two SJs straight gets less confusing as I get older but I still always have to stop and think to be sure. I can always hear in my head in a Newfoundland accent “St Jans” and that’s how I remember. I still answered the poll that it was confusing however.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

Originally Posted by Architype

I see people are answering the poll purely from their own perspective.

For anyone not familiar with Eastern Canada, of course it's confusing!

There is also St. John's, Antigua.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Jo...ua_and_Barbuda

St. John must have been a popular guy.

Yes, this appears to be the case... If ever you have to seek clarity then confusion exists.


Screenshot 2024-06-12 8.55.30 AM by AJ Forsythe, on Flickr

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Is this your way of saying Saint John and St. John's is confusing? Or do you only bring up things related to Quebec and Montreal?

oh, and sorry, Lloydminster, SK/AB ... which isn't really that confusing at all, it's a single municipality on two sides of a provincial border.



.

Cut the snark, please. If you have a problem with my post, PM me.

Of course Lloydminster is not confusing. I've been there several times, but thanks for your facetious remark.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Cut the snark, please. If you have a problem with my post, PM me.

Of course Lloydminster is not confusing. I've been there several times, but thanks for your facetious remark.

You're such a navel-gazing Québécois-centrist/nationalist, you!

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You're such a navel-gazing Québécois-centrist/nationalist, you!

He does indeed have a soft spot for his home province, but, he still pines for a time, nearly long forgotten in the mist of times, when the English language (outside of a few areas in the West Island, and in Gatineau) still had relevance and was not viewed with utter contempt.

[lio45]

I was more intrigued by "going to Lloydminster multiple times" because I recall it wasn't at all on the way to BC from the East, but of course it's on the way to Edmonton.

And that quick glance at a map also confirmed that someone who was replying to me in another thread was fully correct about Prince Rupert's development as a seaport for East Asia being a direct boost for Edmonton as a logistics hub.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

He does indeed have a soft spot for his home province, but, he still pines for a time, nearly long forgotten in the mist of times, when the English language (outside of a few areas in the West Island, and in Gatineau) still had relevance and was not viewed with utter contempt.

English is alive and well in Montreal, don't worry about that.

And be careful with personal info about MolsonEx it's a top-secret topic.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by Architype

I see people are answering the poll purely from their own perspective.

For anyone not familiar with Eastern Canada, of course it's confusing!

There is also St. John's, Antigua.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Jo...ua_and_Barbuda

St. John must have been a popular guy.

And there's a St. Johns, AZ too; without the apostrophe. Indeed, old St. John was indeed a popular guy.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Saint John and St. John's are quite a lot different from each other, and extremely separated from each other, despite many people's assumptions that they might be close to each other or easy to get between.

Kamloops and Kelowna are a 2 hour drive away from each other, while Saint John and St. John's are basically a full 24 hours drive away from each other, over 1700km including a ferry and a drive across almost the entire island of Newfoundland.

I'm from Western Canada myself and think Kamloops and Kelowna are confusing, especially since I've never been to either, and only heard about them. Yet, despite how different and far from each other St. John's and Saint John are, the fact that they are both coastal cities in Atlantic Canada is enough to cause to confusion to many outside the region.

I've always found it surprising that the country with the longest coastline in the world only has 1 or 2 big coastal cities, depending on your definition of big. After Vancouver, Halifax, and Victoria, St. John's and Saint John are the fourth and fifth biggest coastal cities in Canada. Which i think is part of what adds to the confusion, some basically similar geography.

Have never heard of anyone confusing Kamloops with Kelowna. Since you are confused by Saint John vs. St. John's, are you sure you are in the right place? Perhaps you should be in St. John's!