Robie Street Widening

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Regardless of the source of the cargo, containers arriving here are usually not destined for the large consumer markets of NY/Philadelphia, Chicago, Atlanta and the like. The stuff that is mostly has its origin in Europe and is relatively small volumes compared to sources in Asia.

You've clearly entirely missed the significant evolution in cargo through Halifax in recent years. A large proportion of it now comes from Asia. For several lines, Halifax is the next port of call after leaving Asia.

For a long time we had one train a week leaving here for points west which was a real bottleneck. I don't know if that has changed.

You're very out of touch, Keith. CN operates two trains daily from Halifax.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by someone123

It seems hard to square the idea that Saint John will steal all of Halifax's traffic.

No serious person has suggested that. As I noted in an earlier post, Halifax has the permanent geographic advantage of being a day closer by sea to Europe and points east of there.

Saint John port business will grow, for obvious reasons. But so will Halifax's - and is doing so right now.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

No serious person has suggested that. As I noted in an earlier post, Halifax has the permanent geographic advantage of being a day closer by sea to Europe and points east of there.

Saint John port business will grow, for obvious reasons. But so will Halifax's - and is doing so right now.

This conversation started with a suggestion that the port of Saint John has already surpassed Halifax in total tonnage and is eating its lunch as far as container terminal traffic goes. The wider context was that while Halifax is a larger city, it is not going to be #1 in every category, with shipping being an example either today or in the future.

I think some of those claims are speculative and there's always news about this or that port getting investments, congestion issues, and so on. I don't think the debate about a Dartmouth container terminal has much to do with competitiveness relative to Saint John. Usually people bring that up because they don't like the impact of the terminals on the peninsula. I think if Saint John were the superior port due to geographic location and the CP rail connection, that would make it less likely that somebody would want to build another container terminal in Dartmouth.

These discussions often feel like they contain motivated reasoning. If Saint John or Moncton were building, say, taller buildings than Halifax, we would hear about that. But Halifax has more construction so we don't hear about it. It also feels tendentious, with a pull toward representing the Maritimes as being a kind of constellation of towns and cities that all have roughly similar weights and their own special thing going on. But actually there is a dominant regional city that is not close in size to any others and the process that caused this has gone into overdrive lately.

[Nouvellecosse]

I think MR was mostly just pushing back against the idea that Halifax is so important that growing it should be a priority for everyone across the region. That idea is similar to the discredited "trickle down" economics theory in that the spillover benefits from a large premiere city just aren't going to be as good for smaller communities as them receiving more direct investment would be. The trend over the last century has largely been a consolidation of population and economic growth into a few large cities with smaller places stagnating or shrinking. It's good that our region has partly resisted that by having a few smaller cities like Moncton remain competitive. I don't see anything that controversial there.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I think MR was mostly just pushing back against the idea that Halifax is so important that growing it should be a priority for everyone across the region. That idea is similar to the discredited "trickle down" economics theory in that the spillover benefits from a large premiere city just aren't going to be as good for smaller communities as them receiving more direct investment would be. The trend over the last century has largely been a consolidation of population and economic growth into a few large cities with smaller places stagnating or shrinking. It's good that our region has partly resisted that by having a few smaller cities like Moncton remain competitive. I don't see anything that controversial there.

There is a bit of alchemy built into this though. Are we talking about physical geography and towns or the people? A large and growing percentage of people either are in Halifax or environs now or will be in the future, and people can move there. "Cape Bretoners" for example aren't people stuck or even exclusively living in Cape Breton, and in the past they often left the region completely. Cape Breton is much better off if economic growth happens in Halifax instead of Calgary. In a lot of cases the development isn't from public policies and governments tend to push for development to happen in the smaller places while the wider economic tendency has been for consolidation.

There is a balance to be struck but my impression is that in the Maritimes it's pretty far out there with a strong tall poppy syndrome component. I expected to see something similar in other regions in Canada but it's nowhere close. And I think Maritimers severely underestimate the value of having at least 1 actual metropolitan city that's growing and can anchor services like big universities, hospitals, or transportation. The sense of what's too far to be useful in the Maritimes is an outlier in Canada too (except for Quebec where some people strongly stay in province, but they also celebrate Montreal as a kind of national metropolis to a huge degree compared to even just NS). If BC were like the Maritimes, you'd hear lots of people in Abbotsford or Victoria or Nelson complaining about money spent in Vancouver and how amenities there don't benefit them, but this kind of perspective is much less prominent than in the Maritimes.

[Dmajackson]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Anyway, getting back to the Robie Street topic:

What is the actual plan for the widening?

With the properties being cleared to the south of North street and then closer to Bloomfield, will the median be drawn up the middle creating space on both sides? Are there any vision documents?

Way back in 2018 the plans were;

Shape Your City Halifax - Robie & Young Transit Lanes

They built a modified Scenario 'A' between Young/Windsor and Robie/Quinpool. With these properties cleared a version of Scenario 'B' will be constructed.

The McCully-Charles stretch is extensive in terms of property acquisitions which I doubt are complete. IMO Almon-McCully should be constructed first so its open to attract new riders from the developments along that stretch.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Dmajackson

Way back in 2018 the plans were;

Shape Your City Halifax - Robie & Young Transit Lanes

They built a modified Scenario 'A' between Young/Windsor and Robie/Quinpool. With these properties cleared a version of Scenario 'B' will be constructed.

The McCully-Charles stretch is extensive in terms of property acquisitions which I doubt are complete. IMO Almon-McCully should be constructed first so its open to attract new riders from the developments along that stretch.

This link is not working for me.

I did see this 2019 document: https://www.halifax.ca/sites/default...0716rc1553.pdf

For the Almon to Cunard section they show a few different options.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by someone123

There is a bit of alchemy built into this though. Are we talking about physical geography and towns or the people? A large and growing percentage of people either are in Halifax or environs now or will be in the future, and people can move there. "Cape Bretoners" for example aren't people stuck or even exclusively living in Cape Breton, and in the past they often left the region completely. Cape Breton is much better off if economic growth happens in Halifax instead of Calgary. In a lot of cases the development isn't from public policies and governments tend to push for development to happen in the smaller places while the wider economic tendency has been for consolidation.

I think the familiar sort of "people should just move" arguments are valid from a purely economic standpoint but less so from a social, cultural or psychological standpoint. The biggest issue is that unless people all move at once so that everyone brings their entire family and social circle with them, there's a lot of social fracturing that occurs. Young people who haven't developed deep roots don't tend to mind as much. But for others, there are strong connections to place and people that are traumatic to break. For many people, their relation to the land, people, and familiar places are a key part of their quality of life.

Another issue is that for anyone who owns a home in a place with stagnant or negative growth, it tends to have very low resale value. The home may have very high utility value as shelter and may have high sentimental value as a "place" but it won't help them that much when it comes to buying in a much pricier location. A house that's paid off might give a good down payment on the new home, but then they're back to many more years of mortgage payments. Maybe it's worth it from an economic standpoint if they're making a lot more money in the city. Or maybe easier access to services provides a lot of extra value to them. But those are all very uncertain maybes.

Overall I agree that having a bastion of success in a mostly stagnant region is better than the whole region being stagnant. But it just comes across the wrong way to suggest that people in stagnant parts of a region should be cheerleaders for successes elsewhere as if it solves the issues in their own communities. From the perspective of individual people it's just a tone that lacks empathy.

[MonctonRad]

Good post

The main difference between someone and myself is that he seems to be arguing that growth should be concentrated in a single metropole, while I am arguing for a concentration of growth within a "growth corridor."

There really isn't that much of an ideological difference here. Concentration of growth leads to economies of scale, but in a region like the Maritimes where politics is complicated by competing provincial jurisdictions, it would be hard to get NB or PEI to get on any sort of a bandwagon which excludes them from growth potential.

Also, the idea of a growth corridor is not new. Halifax is a days land travel from the northeast US corridor or the central Canadian corridor, and in both cases, you would just be entering these corridors at their northeastern terminus. Why is it difficult to imagine or support the idea of having our own growth corridor to intersect these other two corridors?

Finally, it's not as if HRM is the only growing city in the Maritimes. Moncton is actually the current growth champion in all of Canada (Halifax is #2). Why should Moncton necessary subvert it's own expectations for future growth?

Halifax is the Maritime metropolis. I accept that. This doesn't mean the rest of the region has to stagnate. This would be highly counterproductive.

[someone123]

To me there isn't much "should". A big part of what's happening is already done or is just playing out more or less regardless of some kind of intentional policy and the patterns are much larger than the Maritimes so for better or worse we cannot necessarily expect they can be counterbalanced locally or regionally. A lot of it is generic stuff like people having growing expectations for employment, healthcare, and education set in major cities that are harder to meet in the smaller towns.

To the degree that there has been a deliberate policy it's been on net pointed in the other direction. Some provinces did at times have urbanization plans (like resettlement in NL or public housing construction in other cities), but NS didn't do much if any of that and NB or PEI definitely aren't paying to try to get people to move to Halifax.

I don't expect people to cheerlead for other cities but the fact is other places around them do represent opportunities. I know a few Maritimers from depressed areas of the region for whom Halifax basically didn't register as a possibility at all. They moved to Alberta/Ontario/BC. Personally, I moved to BC because of a specialized degree program and ended up staying here. It's something that could exist at Dalhousie but likely not CBU.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by someone123

This conversation started with a suggestion that the port of Saint John has already surpassed Halifax in total tonnage and is eating its lunch as far as container terminal traffic goes.

Not quite. What was said was that "When all is said and done, SJ will rival Halifax in terms of container capacity." That's quite different from saying SJ was "eating Halifax's lunch". First of all, it's not. Halifax's container volume continues to grow. Second, capacity and actual business are two very different things.

As for "already surpassed Halifax in total tonnage", the word "already" is really misleading. Without actually checking the figures, I'd be willing to bet that that's been the case for many years, likely decades - again, largely because of the quantity of crude oil (in) and refined product (out) which is something SJ has always had.

If the subject is containerized cargo, yes - SJ is growing, and will continue to do so. But so is and will Halifax. It's one of the few North American ports about which that's been true recently.

[q12]

In phase 2 once Robie is fully widened between Almond and Cunard there are two options looked at:

Option #1


Option #2


Option #2 looks like it could easily be converted from Bus to Rail in the future especially with Robie St being flat it's entire length.

Source: https://www.halifax.ca/sites/default...0716rc1553.pdf

[someone123]

I find the concept of a single vehicle lane separated by a row of trees from the transit lanes and other vehicle lane a bit odd but I guess it's showing there are no trees along the sides. Sad that they still show electrical poles in these renderings.

In Europe you see heavily pruned stubby plane trees that look interesting and take up very little space. There are some of those in Halifax already, but not pruned. They are often around traffic lines and there's probably very little risk of them toppling in storms.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

You're very out of touch, Keith. CN operates two trains daily from Halifax.

That's why I qualified my statement. I have not worked in that sector for a while. Still, it is telling that for a long time, the former low train frequency was deemed acceptable. Of course, whether that was due to CN not being willing to move freight waiting at the port for their own internal reasons or simply a lack of adequate volume to justify higher frequency was always a bit mysterious. If what you say is true I am glad that seems to have changed.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

If what you say is true I am glad that seems to have changed.

It seems to have changed quite markedly. All recent pronouncements from CN (who called the port one of its "gems") indicate that, like PSA, it is very bullish on the Port of Halifax. Both are spending a lot of dough upgrading their infrastructure.

Meanwhile, container volumes continue to grow. With the arrival of two new very large cranes at the South End terminal this summer it will be possible to service two very large container ships (15,000 + TEU) simultaneously, which will likely attract new regular large-ship service by the ONE line (CMA-CGM is already calling regularly with these monster ships).

Services originating in Asia and moving west via Suez and the Atlantic (as opposed to east across the Pacific) is fueling much of this growth.

[MonctonRad]

Good to hear.

I am a bit conflicted about all this. While port expansion in SJ is good for the whole province of NB, somewhat paradoxically port expansion in Halifax is actually better for Moncton. This is because of CNR. SJ is serviced by CPR which bypasses Moncton completely, heading instead through the state of Maine.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

It seems to have changed quite markedly. All recent pronouncements from CN (who called the port one of its "gems") indicate that, like PSA, it is very bullish on the Port of Halifax. Both are spending a lot of dough upgrading their infrastructure.

Meanwhile, container volumes continue to grow. With the arrival of two new very large cranes at the South End terminal this summer it will be possible to service two very large container ships (15,000 + TEU) simultaneously, which will likely attract new regular large-ship service by the ONE line (CMA-CGM is already calling regularly with these monster ships).

Services originating in Asia and moving west via Suez and the Atlantic (as opposed to east across the Pacific) is fueling much of this growth.

That will make 10 Post-Panamax cranes between the 2 terminals if I'm not mistaken. Just wondering, is Post-Panamax a relevant term anymore?

[Keith P.]

All of that mega-ship traffic from China to North America really shows the folly of HRM's spending on climate change mitigation measures. Their effect will not even be a drop in the bucket.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

All of that mega-ship traffic from China to North America really shows the folly of HRM's spending on climate change mitigation measures. Their effect will not even be a drop in the bucket.

It can actually be counterproductive if it makes North America relatively uncompetitive and shifts more economic activity to Asia where they run off of cheap coal.

We have a carbon tax as well so climate change mitigation is built into any spending now.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by someone123

It can actually be counterproductive if it makes North America relatively uncompetitive and shifts more economic activity to Asia where they run off of cheap coal.

We have a carbon tax as well so climate change mitigation is built into any spending now.

I'm not sure there's any net increase of traffic to North America from Asia. Rather, it's a shift by the container lines to using ports on the east coast from ports on the west coast.

Many North American businesses are also now "onshoring" production from plants in Asia - a lesson learned from the pandemic disruption of long supply chains and the vulnerability of just-in-time inventory systems to such disruptions (it's gratifying to see at least a little benefit from COVID). Labor costs in many Asian countries are also increasing as their economies (and the sizes of their middle classes) expand, eroding some of their advantage.