Robie Street Widening

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Now there's real Halifax hubris for you, in all it's spectacular glory and display!!!

Sure, I'm proud of Halifax... although your use of the word 'hubris' seems an odd choice, if somehow being a Halifax supporter will lead to its downfall?

Your original comments were to diminish the progress of the city. IMO - It is the best city in the Atlantic provinces, with St. John's coming in second.

Being on the coast is a huge boon for city. I'm not sure why anyone would want to live in Moncton.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

I'm not sure I see SJ rivaling Halifax for container capacity any time soon, it has a lot of catching up to do. Port of Halifax has 600,000 containers per year and Saint John has 64,000. I also don't think SJ is able to accommodate the large post panamax ships that Halifax can accommodate. I could be wrong. As for tonnage, it really comes down what the is being tranported through the port. The Straight of Canso actually has the largest tonnage in Atlantic Canada due to the large rock quarry by the Causeway, very heavy to transport but it doesn't make it a busy port.

Saint John's current tonnage numbers are largely due to supertankers in and out to service the Irving refinery. But their container traffic is definitely set to expand substantially with a big push from CP, newly merged with Kansas City Southern and now called CPKC. They have deep direct connections to the midwest US and now all the way south to Mexico, and have attracted a bunch of new container services (including a chunk of CMA-CGM business they managed to poach from Halifax). The port also has no draft restrictions and no bridges for container vessels to contend with.

The one big remaining advantage Halifax has over Saint John is geographic: by sea it's a day closer to Europe and points east, so Saint John's rail advantage is largely nullified for transatlantic traffic. PSA and CN are investing hugely in Halifax and are both very bullish about its future. With a lot of Asia-North America trade now shifting from the Pacific to the Atlantic via Suez, there's a lot of potential for growth.

Should be an interesting rivalry to watch as it evolves.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Being on the coast is a huge boon for city. I'm not sure why anyone would want to live in Moncton.

When I moved to Moncton from Halifax in 1989, I was a little upset (mostly because I thought it was a step downward from Halifax), but, Moncton offered the best work situation available at the time and I resigned myself to my fate.

But, Moncton grows on you with time, and, does offer a number of unique advantages (which I won't go into at present) which actually makes the city an attractive alternative. I am quite happy here now, and it has been very interesting seeing the growth, development and the maturation of the city over the last 34 years. When I first moved here, the CA (not CMA) population was about 97,000. The Moncton CMA population is now about 184,000, and, increasingly diverse. Moncton will be over 200,000 by the 2026 census.

You may not want to live in Moncton, but obviously a lot of other people do. Before long, Moncton will be a top 25 CMA in Canada.

For the Maritimes to grow and prosper, growth cannot be concentrated in a single CMA. A dispersed growth model involving the entire Fundy corridor (Halifax/Moncton/Saint John) will be necessary. This is what we should be aiming for.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

Should be an interesting rivalry to watch as it evolves.

It is interesting but I have seen these stories for decades, not much major stuff has happened, and in the end I wonder how much economic significance the container shipping really has. There's often a sort of subtext that Halifax is a "port city" and if Saint John can win the port stuff it'll steal some sort of crown. But there's a lot of port activity (e.g. military, which is different from shipping and perhaps the larger driver historically) and there's a lot of other economic activity.

The backdrop is that Saint John has been losing out a bit to Moncton for many years and is now #2 in NB. That is the real rivalry IMO, but it is sexier to talk about gaining ground on Halifax than to talk about Moncton pulling ahead. The Saint John/Halifax ratio is now a bit larger than the size ratio between Halifax and Calgary, Edmonton, or Ottawa. This is not to say that Saint John is a bad city. I think it has lots of potential and could grow into a great city. But it's a different scale of place these days.

It's noticeable how in parts of SSP people are obsessed with population as a determinant of urban greatness but in Atlantic Canada people will often take it too far in the other direction, and ignore scale differences of sometimes 4-5x or more.

[someone123]

The city size stuff is interesting too. There are the "urban structure" factors like how big a city's hinterland is and if it's a capital or not. This is what gives St. John's and Charlottetown a bit more oomph, while Saint John and Sydney have a bit less. You've got some people who talk as though population is all there is, and Zurich is equivalent to a similar-sized factory town in China, and then you've got people who act as though the capital cities are all the same or whatever regardless of scale.

When you compare cities like St. John's and Windsor ON you've got a population gap that runs in the opposite direction of the difference in kind. But when you have Halifax and Sydney you've got a population gap and a gap in city importance that are going in the same direction and the overall gap is considerable.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

It is interesting but I have seen these stories for decades, not much major stuff has happened, and in the end I wonder how much economic significance the container shipping really has.

Container shipping is massive and unfortunately Halifax is still small potatoes compared to other east coast container ports like NY/NJ, Charleston, Savannah, Norfolk and Jacksonville. Those have seen considerable growth over the last decade or so with the Panama Canal being expanded to allow for trans-Pacific ships to travel to the east coast more readily and avoid the US west coast ports that are perpetually congested with ships from China.

Halifax's problem has always been CN. Regardless of the source of the cargo, containers arriving here are usually not destined for the large consumer markets of NY/Philadelphia, Chicago, Atlanta and the like. The stuff that is mostly has its origin in Europe and is relatively small volumes compared to sources in Asia. Getting those containers out of Halifax to even Toronto and Montreal has always been an issue, and getting them to Chicago is an even bigger headache because of CN's infrequent and slow service to those cities. I remember seeing a study a couple of decades ago that indicated that while a train from Halifax to Chicago was a relatively short and straight line on a map, the actual infrastructure either did not exist through the NE US or was in such poor condition that it was essentially unusable. That meant cargo had to go from here to Toronto by rail and then find its way to Chicago to access the midwest markets, a slow and expensive undertaking. For a long time we had one train a week leaving here for points west which was a real bottleneck. I don't know if that has changed. But in any event, the cargo going through here is largely attributable to just a handful of carriers and is a mere fraction of what gets handled by the large US ports who now handle most of the China traffic. It makes little sense for them to call here a few days later than when they could access those US east coast ports, then have to have the cargo wait here for a CN train. What we see in Halifax is mostly stuff intended for the relatively small Eastern Canada markets.

[q12]

With a fully widened Robie Street, and a replacement Mackay bridge in the works, we should plan for rail-based transit from SMU down Robie across a new bridge and down the 111 into Dartmouth. Have the tracks split at the Windsor street exchange towards Bedford along the basin.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Container shipping is massive and unfortunately Halifax is still small potatoes compared to other east coast container ports like NY/NJ, Charleston, Savannah, Norfolk and Jacksonville. Those have seen considerable growth over the last decade or so with the Panama Canal being expanded to allow for trans-Pacific ships to travel to the east coast more readily and avoid the US west coast ports that are perpetually congested with ships from China..

To be clear my point about container shipping and the economy was about the local economy and what can reasonably be expected for growth in the region, not container shipping around the world. If Halifax or Saint John became primary container shipping ports for North America, sure, it would be a big deal. But this is has never panned out before, probably mostly because of the shift in trade to Asia and the fact that there are already major established ports at the East Coast cities. Then you've got other factors like the Jones Act which must encourage some shipping to stay US only. LA gets 4x the container traffic of NYC. In Canada we have the classic problem of oligopolies, red tape, and many different areas lining up for public subsidy with not much direction in where to invest.

For Saint John one wonders why you'd want to travel up the Bay of Fundy instead of spending that time getting closer to Boston or NYC. That might be due to congestion at points or along the railways, but that's will tend to be a less stable business as those other ports have an incentive to clear up that congestion and recapture the traffic. For the much smaller Maritime-destined cargo flows, Halifax is probably more convenient due to its location and 1/3 or so of the regional population living nearby.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

For Saint John one wonders why you'd want to travel up the Bay of Fundy instead of spending that time getting closer to Boston or NYC. That might be due to congestion at points or along the railways, but that's will tend to be a less stable business as those other ports have an incentive to clear up that congestion and recapture the traffic. If the remaining traffic is local Atlantic Canada stuff, Halifax is probably more convenient.

For Saint John, the biggest advantage is CP Rail, with it's fully integrated North American rail network extending down into Mexico.

CP appears to be going "all in" in support of Port Saint John and is upgrading its trackage in Maine, and solidifying connections to the rail network in New England.

As Keith said, CNR has never committed to Halifax in the same way, and connections to the rest of North America could very well end up being considerably more dodgy (not to mention longer) than the rail connections in Saint John.

The shorter and quicker rail connections out of SJ make up for the fact that container ships have to make a U-turn up the Bay of Fundy to get to Saint John.

Not everything is rosy in Saint John however, and, in particular, the harbour is considerably smaller than Halifax and more physically constrained. This will ultimately limit growth, but will not prevent SJ from becoming a considerable rival in the short term.

For Halifax to maintain it's position in the container business, it needs to get CNR to be more supportive as a business partner (more double tracking, increased frequency), and, perhaps look at relocating the container port off the peninsula, to somewhere in the outer harbour on the Dartmouth side. This would remove bottlenecks in rail connectivity and eliminate problems with the (relatively) low clearance of the harbour suspension bridges.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by q12

With a fully widened Robie Street, and a replacement Mackay bridge in the works, we should plan for rail-based transit from SMU down Robie across a new bridge and down the 111 into Dartmouth. Have the tracks split at the Windsor street exchange towards Bedford along the basin.

I'm sure our leaders will get right on that.

[someone123]

Is there a detailed plan for Robie showing the lanes somewhere? I see a lot of articles full of people complaining and some very general HRM material that explains what bus lanes are and the like. Is the whole thing going to 4 lanes or more?

Robie Street is going to be a major corridor in the long run with all the development happening.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

As Keith said, CNR has never committed to Halifax in the same way, and connections to the rest of North America could very well end up being considerably more dodgy (not to mention longer) than the rail connections in Saint John.

But won't these still be worse than Montreal or NYC? I've heard those CN vs. CP complaints. They're hard to assess and those things can change.

For Halifax to maintain it's position in the container business, it needs to get CNR to be more supportive as a business partner (more double tracking, increased frequency), and, perhaps look at relocating the container port off the peninsula, to somewhere in the outer harbour on the Dartmouth side. This would remove bottlenecks in rail connectivity and eliminate problems with the (relatively) low clearance of the harbour suspension bridges.

The South End terminal does not require ships to pass under the harbour bridges. It looks to be 800 m long or so and Saint John doesn't have any similar infrastructure visible.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Anyway, getting back to the Robie Street topic:

What is the actual plan for the widening?

With the properties being cleared to the south of North street and then closer to Bloomfield, will the median be drawn up the middle creating space on both sides? Are there any vision documents?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

But won't these still be worse than Montreal or NYC? I've heard those CN vs. CP complaints. They're hard to assess and those things can change.

Saint John is a lot closer to Boston than Halifax is to Montreal. Driving by car, Boston is about 6.5 hours from Saint John, while Montreal is about 12-13 hours from Halifax.

Not everything is about ocean or rail travel times however. Port congestion and berthage fees has to be factored in as well. It is a balance.

All I know is that CP is making a considerable investment to support Port Saint John, and the port itself is doubling in size and capacity. There has to be a reason.

Originally Posted by someone123

The South End terminal does not require ships to pass under the harbour bridges. It looks to be 800 m long or so and Saint John doesn't have any similar infrastructure visible.

I realize that. The South End terminal is constrained by location, and the rail cut. The Fairview Cove terminal is also somewhat physically constrained in terms of growth and is also limited by bridge clearance meaning that it is inaccessible to the larger post Panamax vessels.

I know somebody who used to be on the board of directors of the port authority in Halifax. He (she) told me the port authority wanted to relocate the terminal to the Dartmouth side and have a dedicated rail connection to the CN mainline to promote further growth.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

For Halifax to maintain it's position in the container business, it needs to get CNR to be more supportive as a business partner (more double tracking, increased frequency), and, perhaps look at relocating the container port off the peninsula, to somewhere in the outer harbour on the Dartmouth side. This would remove bottlenecks in rail connectivity and eliminate problems with the (relatively) low clearance of the harbour suspension bridges.

All good points that make considerable sense. However both container piers are federally owned and so such a relocation would all hinge on (a) the Feds having an appetite to do that, both politically and financially, and (b) the entrenched interests of the Port being willing to move forward with such a sea change to their way of thinking. Unfortunately the Port has always been a captive of those entrenched interests and resisted any real change. They are not necessarily the sharpest knives in the drawer either, and would need to be firmly directed by their political masters to make any such move.

There has always been reluctance towards big moves like this, for reasons both legitimate and less than so. Certainly the financial commitment would be massive, not just for the construction required on the Dartmouth side but also for the considerable dredging and perhaps even navigable channel construction that might be necessary. The flip side would be the very valuable land that would be freed up in the south end of the city for new development. For years there have been blue-sky schematics floating around showing how that waterfront space could be used for high-end condos/apartments, marinas, whatever. I would not trust the Port Authority to be able to do a good job of that, but it makes for an interesting theoretical exercise.

The lack of political will to even transform the rail cut into something useful for solving commuter traffic to DT either via an elevated highway above or using the ROW for some sort of mass transit solution would suggest this is very unlikely to ever happen, sadly.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

With the properties being cleared to the south of North street and then closer to Bloomfield, will the median be drawn up the middle creating space on both sides? Are there any vision documents?

I haven't seen a full diagram. Just one illustration of demolished properties and then this one has a map showing which directions will have dedicated bus lanes (fully bidirectional in "phase 2" which seems to be happening now): https://www.halifax.ca/about-halifax/reg...on-planning/transit-priority/robie-young

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The lack of political will to even transform the rail cut into something useful for solving commuter traffic to DT either via an elevated highway above or using the ROW for some sort of mass transit solution would suggest this is very unlikely to ever happen, sadly.

The relocation of Halterm, the repurposing of the rail cut for commuter rail and the redevelopment of port lands for high density and high intensity use (not to mention the possibility of a third harbour crossing) is the sort of generational paradigm shift the city of Halifax desperately needs.

Sleepy Halifax is no longer sleepy. It needs to embrace it's future. It's time to invest the billions of dollars necessary to make it happen.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I know somebody who used to be on the board of directors of the port authority in Halifax. He (she) told me the port authority wanted to relocate the terminal to the Dartmouth side and have a dedicated rail connection to the CN mainline to promote further growth.

Both container terminals have a direct, fully grade-separated connection to the same line that splits off to go to Dartmouth (that line does have at-grade crossings). CN traffic seems to have the highest priority on all the rail lines, whether they're blocking vehicle traffic or passenger rail.

It seems hard to square the idea that Saint John will steal all of Halifax's traffic with the idea that a new terminal has to be built in Dartmouth. If Saint John is superior, why would you build the terminal in Dartmouth? Why did Halifax end up with more container traffic for so long? The geography and CP vs. CN service issues are not new.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

Both container terminals have a direct, fully grade-separated connection to the same line that splits off to go to Dartmouth (that line does have at-grade crossings). CN traffic seems to have the highest priority on all the rail lines, whether they're blocking cars or saying no to expanded passenger rail.

According to my friend, the port would like to have a brand new rail line to the north and east of Dartmouth, then circling west to connect with the CNR mainline somewhere around Waverley. The current line on the Dartmouth waterfront has too many limitations.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Container shipping is massive and unfortunately Halifax is still small potatoes compared to other east coast container ports like NY/NJ, Charleston, Savannah, Norfolk and Jacksonville. Those have seen considerable growth over the last decade or so with the Panama Canal being expanded to allow for trans-Pacific ships to travel to the east coast more readily and avoid the US west coast ports that are perpetually congested with ships from China.

Halifax's problem has always been CN. Regardless of the source of the cargo, containers arriving here are usually not destined for the large consumer markets of NY/Philadelphia, Chicago, Atlanta and the like. The stuff that is mostly has its origin in Europe and is relatively small volumes compared to sources in Asia. Getting those containers out of Halifax to even Toronto and Montreal has always been an issue, and getting them to Chicago is an even bigger headache because of CN's infrequent and slow service to those cities. I remember seeing a study a couple of decades ago that indicated that while a train from Halifax to Chicago was a relatively short and straight line on a map, the actual infrastructure either did not exist through the NE US or was in such poor condition that it was essentially unusable. That meant cargo had to go from here to Toronto by rail and then find its way to Chicago to access the midwest markets, a slow and expensive undertaking. For a long time we had one train a week leaving here for points west which was a real bottleneck. I don't know if that has changed. But in any event, the cargo going through here is largely attributable to just a handful of carriers and is a mere fraction of what gets handled by the large US ports who now handle most of the China traffic. It makes little sense for them to call here a few days later than when they could access those US east coast ports, then have to have the cargo wait here for a CN train. What we see in Halifax is mostly stuff intended for the relatively small Eastern Canada markets.

Both Walmart Canada and Canadian Tire ship approximately 25% of their Canadian destined containers through Halifax even though in a direct line sense a West Coast Port should be a better fit. Except they are not. Halifax is less than a two hour diversion off the great Circle route from European ports or in some cases Columbo Sri Lanka. The Halifax Unions also have a very strong getter Done reputation and have served as a release valve for when their Union brothers have issues in NYC and Montreal.