ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[shivtim]

Originally Posted by BunkyWay

I don't think the center has reached Perimeter Center...yet. I'd define Buckhead () as the region's center, with Midtown and Downtown basically edge cities.

Downtown should not be focusing on corporate jobs for vitality...that train left the station long ago.

Downtown Atlanta, the densest job center in the Southeast, with 12,000 hotel rooms, the nation's 5th busiest convention center, a 32,000 student University, the 5th largest public hospital in the country, the capital building and offices for the entire state, city hall, headquarters of Sun Trust, Georgia Pacific, and Southern Company, the world's largest aquarium, Georgia's largest domed stadium, the nations third busiest arena, an NFL team, an NBA team, 27,000 residents, one of the world's largest wholesale trade centers, and the busiest transit station in the entire Southeast is an "edge city." Got it.

[testarossa50]

http://www.bisnow.com/commercial-real-estate/atlanta/ice-buying-5660/

Buried in this Bisnow article is a reference to a planned shuttle running every 15 minutes from North Avenue MARTA Station to Ponce City Market. Has this come up from any other sources? I'd absolutely love for there to be an Atlantic Station-style shuttle to PCM/the Beltline. I'd use it all the time, and patronize more stuff in the area too. Between the shuttle, the #2, and the #99 buses, there would be some form of bus to PCM every 5-10 minutes.

[atlantaguy]

Originally Posted by BunkyWay

I don't think the center has reached Perimeter Center...yet. I'd define Buckhead () as the region's center, with Midtown and Downtown basically edge cities.

Downtown should not be focusing on corporate jobs for vitality...that train left the station long ago. Even the law firms left for greener pastures in Midtown (how long until they find new digs in Buckhead?).

The hope for a vibrant Downtown lies with Georgia State and the convention industry.

When I say the "center of gravity" I'm referring to the true center of population of the entire metro. Buckhead may be it - I personally think that's just slightly north of where it may be. I would love to see some data that breaks it down.

BUT, when my friends and I (who are as nerdy about these things as most of us are, two old-line natives included) talk and argue about the true center of gravity as far as importance, vibrancy, the best the metro has to offer, etc. we debate often over where the real corner of "Main & Main" truly is at this point in time. And we are talking metro wide, not just the City or ITP.

Current consensus within my group leans heavily towards the corner of Peachtree & 14th Streets, by a wide margin.

And Downtown is not an Edge City, by any means. It's role has changed dramatically, but it is no Edge City. Downtown is vitally important, it is simply playing a different role than in the past. As shivtim points out, it's an economic powerhouse in multiple ways, and it's impact to the entire region is measured in multiples of billions annually.

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by arjay57

Given that the stadium will probably be gone in 25 years or so, the key factor is what we're doing to strengthen the urban fabric. (Sorry to use such a hackneyed phrase but I couldn't come up with anything else off the top of my head).

It sounds like some exciting things are on the horizon. Wouldn't it be awesome if Vine City becomes the next Virginia Highland?

i'd love to see vine city revitalized, but i don't think i'd like to see it become the next VaHi. VaHi has become a pretty exclusive high income and all white neighbourhood. vine city needs to be a huge part of the black community, but in a new and exciting way. i think the perfect thing would be if it were the new O4W, with a lot of redevelopment but still a lot of relatively affordable places to live.

Originally Posted by trnsplnt

Those churches were holding out for $$$$$ and that, for me, spells G.R.E.E.D. If they were truly looking to preserve their heritage or as some say stand their ground against being pushed around by the city, they would have just said so from the start, instead they chose to "play game" and in the end they lost big.

have you ever a student ask a teacher if they'd give them an A+ if you paid them $10 million? it's sort of the same question. when it comes to money, if you're offering enough, it's hard to deny anything unless it's just absolutely morally repugnant.

[atlantaguy]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

i'd love to see vine city revitalized, but i don't think i'd like to see it become the next VaHi. VaHi has become a pretty exclusive high income and all white neighbourhood. vine city needs to be a huge part of the black community, but in a new and exciting way. i think the perfect thing would be if it were the new O4W, with a lot of redevelopment but still a lot of relatively affordable places to live.

I suspect arjay57 was talking about VaHi in its built form, with all the vibrant shops/bars/restaurants and nice surrounding residential neighborhoods. And it is hardly "all white." That is ridiculous, and Census stats prove it. Have you ever walked around the side streets in the area between Virginia and Ponce? It's pretty diverse, in every possible way.

The ethnicity or cost of the area is not relevant to what I think he meant. I suspect he was using it as an example of what "could be."

If I'm wrong, I hope he will correct me.

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by atlantaguy

I suspect arjay57 was talking about VaHi in its built form, with all the vibrant shops/bars/restaurants and nice surrounding residential neighborhoods. And it is hardly "all white." That is ridiculous, and Census stats prove it. Have you ever walked around the side streets in the area between Virginia and Ponce? It's pretty diverse, in every possible way.

The ethnicity or cost of the area is not relevant to what I think he meant. I suspect he was using it as an example of what "could be."

If I'm wrong, I hope he will correct me.

2010 us census shows that all four tracts have white percentages of 78%, 90%, 84%, and 85%

[Frankster87]

Originally Posted by shivtim

Downtown Atlanta, the densest job center in the Southeast, with 12,000 hotel rooms, the nation's 5th busiest convention center, a 32,000 student University, the 5th largest public hospital in the country, the capital building and offices for the entire state, city hall, headquarters of Sun Trust, Georgia Pacific, and Southern Company, the world's largest aquarium, Georgia's largest domed stadium, the nations third busiest arena, an NFL team, an NBA team, 27,000 residents, one of the world's largest wholesale trade centers, and the busiest transit station in the entire Southeast is an "edge city." Got it.

Thank you!!! It was starting to get a little ridiculous in here.

[Terminus]

Originally Posted by testarossa50

http://www.bisnow.com/commercial-real-estate/atlanta/ice-buying-5660/

Buried in this Bisnow article is a reference to a planned shuttle running every 15 minutes from North Avenue MARTA Station to Ponce City Market. Has this come up from any other sources? I'd absolutely love for there to be an Atlantic Station-style shuttle to PCM/the Beltline. I'd use it all the time, and patronize more stuff in the area too. Between the shuttle, the #2, and the #99 buses, there would be some form of bus to PCM every 5-10 minutes.

In an ideal world this money would be used to subsidize increased headways on the #2 (with free ridership for PCM workers and residents) but, but I understand that such is simply not economical given the salaries and benefits MARTA drivers get. It's always FAR CHEAPER to hire private shuttles than get comparable upgrades on an existing bus route.

[briantech]

Maybe if they build the stadium at the north site, that will provide more pressure to extend marta up the marietta corridor, stopping at the stadium, and continuing on to West Midtown / white provisions.

[Tuckerman]

Center of ATL

Given the heavy development of Perimeter, Vinings and Alpharetta, I would push the virtual metro center a little further north than 14th and Peachtree. Downtown is definitely not an edge city, but I think the concept of "edge city", while useful 15-20 years ago, is now very dated. It is replaced by multi-centers in many big metros. Sometimes these new centers have a specific function, like Houston's medical center, but often they are very mixed, like our Perimeter. In most cases these are characterized by a sudden outgrowth of tall buildings. This is the modern cityscape and the reason why "downtown" is also a rather dated concept.

[ChrisInmanPark]

Originally Posted by testarossa50

http://www.bisnow.com/commercial-real-estate/atlanta/ice-buying-5660/

Buried in this Bisnow article is a reference to a planned shuttle running every 15 minutes from North Avenue MARTA Station to Ponce City Market. Has this come up from any other sources? I'd absolutely love for there to be an Atlantic Station-style shuttle to PCM/the Beltline. I'd use it all the time, and patronize more stuff in the area too. Between the shuttle, the #2, and the #99 buses, there would be some form of bus to PCM every 5-10 minutes.

That is good news and makes a lot of sense, but PCM is banking on getting the streetcar extended along the Beltline to them sooner rather than later. I was on the tour of PCM this past Sunday, and they were talking about things going on behind the scenes to get that extension done within the next couple of years. In fact they said that they had originally planned to make a connection to the Beltline down to Ponce on the PCM side, but now it's going in behind CVS next year. They changed it to make room for the transit. That is good news meaning there will be a connection from the Beltline down to Whole Foods, Home Debot, etc.

[cityenthusiast]

Originally Posted by shivtim

Downtown Atlanta, the densest job center in the Southeast, with 12,000 hotel rooms, the nation's 5th busiest convention center, a 32,000 student University, the 5th largest public hospital in the country, the capital building and offices for the entire state, city hall, headquarters of Sun Trust, Georgia Pacific, and Southern Company, the world's largest aquarium, Georgia's largest domed stadium, the nations third busiest arena, an NFL team, an NBA team, 27,000 residents, one of the world's largest wholesale trade centers, and the busiest transit station in the entire Southeast is an "edge city." Got it.

Well said sir I think you changed his mind about just an "edge city"

[ATLaffinity]

Originally Posted by BunkyWay

Downtown should not be focusing on corporate jobs for vitality...that train left the station long ago. Even the law firms left for greener pastures in Midtown (how long until they find new digs in Buckhead?).

Ummm, not in our lifetime.

[scania]

Originally Posted by ATLaffinity

Ummm, not in our lifetime.

There are a few firms already there.

[scania]

Originally Posted by Tuckerman

Center of ATL

Given the heavy development of Perimeter, Vinings and Alpharetta, I would push the virtual metro center a little further north than 14th and Peachtree. Downtown is definitely not an edge city, but I think the concept of "edge city", while useful 15-20 years ago, is now very dated. It is replaced by multi-centers in many big metros. Sometimes these new centers have a specific function, like Houston's medical center, but often they are very mixed, like our Perimeter. In most cases these are characterized by a sudden outgrowth of tall buildings. This is the modern cityscape and the reason why "downtown" is also a rather dated concept.

I think I can totally agree with you.

[scania]

Originally Posted by shivtim

Downtown Atlanta, the densest job center in the Southeast, with 12,000 hotel rooms, the nation's 5th busiest convention center, a 32,000 student University, the 5th largest public hospital in the country, the capital building and offices for the entire state, city hall, headquarters of Sun Trust, Georgia Pacific, and Southern Company, the world's largest aquarium, Georgia's largest domed stadium, the nations third busiest arena, an NFL team, an NBA team, 27,000 residents, one of the world's largest wholesale trade centers, and the busiest transit station in the entire Southeast is an "edge city." Got it.

I agree that it wouldn't be considered an edge city. But, most of your facts are POINTLESS!!! The world's largest aquarium??? the world's largest trade center??? A 32,000 student University???(most big universities aren't even in a city) Those things have nothing to do with being a city/and or edge city. The point of the guys statement was simply that if you took the center gravity, it would be Buckhead, meaning it was in the middle of Downtown and Perimeter.

[clexmond]

Originally Posted by scania

I agree that it wouldn't be considered an edge city. But, most of your facts are POINTLESS!!! The world's largest aquarium??? the world's largest trade center??? A 32,000 student University???(most big universities aren't even in a city) Those things have nothing to do with being a city/and or edge city. The point of the guys statement was simply that if you took the center gravity, it would be Buckhead, meaning it was in the middle of Downtown and Perimeter.

Ok, why don't you share with the group what it is that makes a city.

[ATL_J]

Originally Posted by clexmond

Ok, why don't you share with the group what it is that makes a city.

I second this, I am interested in hearing Scania's surely thought provoking insight.

[shivtim]

How about some data instead of speculation? Using ARC's most recent data on employment and population, here are the "centers of gravity" for the 20-county metro area.



Note that these are just the centers of employment and population for the metro - so they don't take into account things like hotel rooms, cultural and sporting venues, event attendance, etc.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by atlantaguy

I suspect arjay57 was talking about VaHi in its built form, with all the vibrant shops/bars/restaurants and nice surrounding residential neighborhoods. And it is hardly "all white." That is ridiculous, and Census stats prove it. Have you ever walked around the side streets in the area between Virginia and Ponce? It's pretty diverse, in every possible way.

The ethnicity or cost of the area is not relevant to what I think he meant. I suspect he was using it as an example of what "could be."

If I'm wrong, I hope he will correct me.

No, that's exactly what I meant -- a pleasant, walkable community with some fun retail and well kept homes and good schools. I wasn't thinking about race at all.