The 401

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

I'm of the opinion that the current widening project was just a vote buying project for southwestern Ontario to ensure that that Chatham and Elgin counties continue to vote red.

Red is Liberal in Ontario.

[Innsertnamehere]

Interesting - had no idea MTO had any plans to widen between the 409 and 427. That’s the most congested part of the 401 and has the most potential for widening so it makes sense. I’d take it!

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Red is Liberal in Ontario.

Oh god, I really have been watching too much US media...

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

Oh god, I really have been watching too much US media...

It's OK, I know you get around, I thought maybe the ny in your handle was for New York, and that you are American.

[sonysnob]

Oh no, definitely a Canadian, from outside the GTA. I actually went to school in London back when I was in my early 20s. I still have lots of good memories from living at the corner of Western and Platts back before the weight of the world crushed my spirit. lol.

Sony snob is just because of my affinity for Sony branded products. It's been my handle probably from when I actually lived in London, if not before.

[Djeffery]

So, all this talk of construction brought to mind the recent bunch of overpasses being replaced in the London region. Here are google map links to 4 of them, Elgin Rd, Highway 19, Highway 59, and Northhumberland Ave, west of Cambridge. The first 3 were built in the last 2 or 3 years, Northhumberland about 10 years or so ago. Funny that they are all different designs. I wonder what decision goes in to which design each goes with. The contractor who wins the deal specializes in each design or something? I remember the Northumberland overpass being built, and it was a big superstructure built up across the highway, and several months later, they removed the structure and there was the bridge. I didn't include Veterans Parkway because it's very close to the same design as 59.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@42.96529...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.02765...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.10977...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.31299...7i13312!8i6656

[sonysnob]

Usually for bridge designs they are up to the consultant that the MTO hires to design the bridge for them. Local suppliers for pre-cast concrete and steel can vary a bit by location, so that can have an impact on bridge design (ie. whether concrete or steel) as well.

As for Northumberland Road, that bridge crosses the 401 at enough of a skew that they decided to go with a cast in place, post-tensioned bridge design. During the late 60s through to the early 90s most bridges in southcentral Ontario were built this way. Post-tensioned bridges are a bit more of a pain to construct because you have to build temporary formwork over the highway while you pour the concrete in place, but offer the designer more flexibility in terms of span length. In this case, the span length is a bit longer than a standard bridge because Northumberland crosses the 401 on a skew.

edited to add:

it is funny how much narrower the bridge over the 401 is for 59 relative to to Highway 19 or Wellington Road for example.
Looking at streetview, the slope paving that protects the abutment is almost right up to the edge of the 401 at the 59 bridge. At Highway 19, for example, the slope paving starts something like 28 metres from the central highway median. It's wide enough that they could widen the 401 to ten lanes and add loop ramps to the Highway 19 interchange converting it to a conventional parclo without touching the slope paving. When they get to widening the 401 through Woodstock, they'll pretty much have to remove all of the newly built slope paving and construct a new abutment ballast wall. Definitely a different design philosophy for those two bridges.

edited again: I highlighted what I mean by slope paving. I'm guessing not everyone reading this would know what I mean by that:

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Don’t we all feel the same way?
Just like what haljackey said, politics, politics, politics. No wonder politician’s such a thankless job: low pay and angry faces.
But holy smokes, the median on QEW is only 7.5 m wide? I heard that median needs to be at least 30 ft (9.144 m) wide to even have a separating effect.

It’s around 7.5 m. I think it’s actually slightly wider than that in most places.

What’s really remarkable is the median width isn’t the lowest standard thing about the QEW between Niagara Falls and Fort Erie.

[Djeffery]

The other interesting thing about the highway 19 bridge I forgot about was it was built over beside the eastbound on ramp and then lifted into place over a weekend. It wasn't an express job like that recent Ottawa bridge was by any means though. They still had to remove the old bridge and put in the new abutments, lift in the new bridge and finish off the approaches. But definitely faster than removing and rebuilding. I'm not sure why they didn't want to build the new beside the old like they did with 59 and are doing with 74 at London.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

edited to add:

it is funny how much narrower the bridge over the 401 is for 59 relative to to Highway 19 or Wellington Road for example.
Looking at streetview, the slope paving that protects the abutment is almost right up to the edge of the 401 at the 59 bridge. At Highway 19, for example, the slope paving starts something like 28 metres from the central highway median. It's wide enough that they could widen the 401 to ten lanes and add loop ramps to the Highway 19 interchange converting it to a conventional parclo without touching the slope paving. When they get to widening the 401 through Woodstock, they'll pretty much have to remove all of the newly built slope paving and construct a new abutment ballast wall. Definitely a different design philosophy for those two bridges.

edited again: I highlighted what I mean by slope paving. I'm guessing not everyone reading this would know what I mean by that:

They did something similar at Highbury when they widened the 401 to 6 from 4 lanes. The ramps used to loop around and enter the highway to the left of the support pillars when it was 4 lanes. When they needed that space for the extra lanes, they dug out the space to the right of the pillars and put up a new vertical retaining wall instead of the slope, and ran the ramps in that space. They did the same thing at the Highbury and Bradley overpass when they decided to put ramps there (hard to think back when there was no interchange there. Hell, I vaguely remember when the road didn't even connect across Highbury lol).

[sonysnob]

It's surprising that the MTO built the bridge at 59 they way that they did for that reason. Most often the MTO likes to have a little bit of extra room beyond the design footprint of the freeway so if there is a need to squeeze an extra lane beneath the overpass unexpectedly, there is sufficient room to cheat it beneath the overpass. The overpass at 59 has less foresight than normal for the MTO.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

It's surprising that the MTO built the bridge at 59 they way that they did for that reason. Most often the MTO likes to have a little bit of extra room beyond the design footprint of the freeway so if there is a need to squeeze an extra lane beneath the overpass unexpectedly, there is sufficient room to cheat it beneath the overpass. The overpass at 59 has less foresight than normal for the MTO.

Throwaway structure?

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

I agree that widening the 401 through C-K is a waste of money. If nothing else, I take some solace in the fact that the only project where construction is actually funded is the segment through Tilbury. Actual funding hasn't been committed to widening any other segments of the 401 through C-K or Elgin. From the London end, they'll have to do a lot just to widen the portion from the 402to the western city limit of London.

I'm of the opinion that the current widening project was just a vote buying project for southwestern Ontario to ensure that that Chatham and Elgin counties continue to vote red.

If the residents of southwestern Ontario actually cared about maximizing highway safety, they'd be advocating for twinning both Highway 3 to Leamington and Highway 40 around Sarnia. You get far more bang for the buck by twinning a highway than by replacing one style of median barrier with another one.

I totally agree. I think HWY #3 in Essex to Leamington is a first priority as is twinning the entire HWY#40 between Sarnia and Chatham.

The other priority should be to twin HWY#4 from London to at least Lucan and HWY#7 from it's #4 intersection thru St.Mary's and Stratford all the way to Kitchener. Not only is this section becoming busier due to London commuters but also because getting to the 401 to go eastbound from the fast growing northern sections of London is too long a trek and many are now opting for the Stratford to KW Conestoga route and then taking the 401.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I totally agree. I think HWY #3 in Essex to Leamington is a first priority as is twinning the entire HWY#40 between Sarnia and Chatham.

The other priority should be to twin HWY#4 from London to at least Lucan and HWY#7 from it's #4 intersection thru St.Mary's and Stratford all the way to Kitchener. Not only is this section becoming busier due to London commuters but also because getting to the 401 to go eastbound from the fast growing northern sections of London is too long a trek and many are now opting for the Stratford to KW Conestoga route and then taking the 401.

I think that last bit is exaggeration. It takes forever to go through Stratford and KW to get to the 401 unless you are already well north of 7. I know people that go that way because they don't like the busy 401, and making that route an even busier highway kind of defeats that as well. With the Veterans Parkway extension, it's a seamless transition now from the north coming across Fanshawe or Sunningdale and south on Clarke and directly on to VMP. From Masonville mall, it would take almost as long to get to highway 7 as it would to get to the 401. An hour later, you are almost at Milton going to the 401 at London, or just coming into Kitchener on highway 7/8.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Throwaway structure?

There's definitely room under the structure to add at least a lane each way. As sony says, they have to excavate the slope and put a new retaining wall closer to the support structure at each end of the bridge. The new bridge is definitely much wider than the one it replaced, which had 6 lanes under it. Here's is a streetview image when the new was being built with the old still there.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.10939...7i13312!8i6656

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

There's definitely room under the structure to add at least a lane each way. As sony says, they have to excavate the slope and put a new retaining wall closer to the support structure at each end of the bridge. The new bridge is definitely much wider than the one it replaced, which had 6 lanes under it. Here's is a streetview image when the new was being built with the old still there.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.10939...7i13312!8i6656

Okay, I didn’t know that the slopes can just be excavated without the overpass collapsing.

[haljackey]

There's still room to add an extra lane under that overpass SonySnob is showing.

Maybe a oversight but isn't the plan 8 lanes max on the 401 between London and the 403? That bridge will accommodate that cross-section.

In London, one day maybe 10 lanes max from Highbury or VMP to the 402. Wellington Road can accommodate this since it isn't sloped at the sides just like Highbury.


https://www.google.ca/maps/@42.92300...7i13312!8i6656

What gets me is this long boi just west of the the 402. This was made for 8 lanes... west of 402? Seems excessive but future-proofing I guess?



https://www.google.ca/maps/@42.89808...7i13312!8i6656

[Dengler Avenue]

Oh boy that median barrier looks thick. How wide is it?

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by haljackey

There's still room to add an extra lane under that overpass SonySnob is showing.

Maybe a oversight but isn't the plan 8 lanes max on the 401 between London and the 403? That bridge will accommodate that cross-section.

In London, one day maybe 10 lanes max from Highbury or VMP to the 402. Wellington Road can accommodate this since it isn't sloped at the sides just like Highbury.


https://www.google.ca/maps/@42.92300...7i13312!8i6656

What gets me is this long boi just west of the the 402. This was made for 8 lanes... west of 402? Seems excessive but future-proofing I guess?



https://www.google.ca/maps/@42.89808...7i13312!8i6656

Bridges west of the 402 interchange are being designed for 8 lanes.

East of the 402 is 10.
Some of the older bridges, such as Old Victoria, Culloden and Foldens only support 8 lanes, but the newer ones such as Hwy 73, 19, and 59 are all wide enough for 10.

Dingman is set to be replaced next year. I haven't seen the design, so I don't know how wide it is. If I were in charge, I'd make it for twelve lanes wide, (10 + continuous auxiliary lanes between the 402 and Wellington), but I bet it just supports ten lanes.

[MolsonExport]

hard to imagine that London would ever need more than 4 lanes each way on the 401. But I suppose that was said not too long ago about KWC.