The 401

[Dengler Avenue]

Then we need variable speed limits too. Otherwise, ain’t nobody trying to convince me to give up my car.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Otherwise, ain’t nobody trying to convince me to give up my car.

This will be the biggest hindrance to automated vehicles, IMO. The technology will be ready in the near future, but will "the will" to use it?

There's a tipping point where the benefits of a automated fleet kick in and improve the flow of all traffic, safety, etc... but if too many people refuse to give up self-operation of their cars that can't happen.

[Innsertnamehere]

MTO has been performing minor lane adjustments as it rebuilds sections of the central 401 over the last decade. MTO added a westbound collectors lane between the 400 and 409 a few years ago for example.

I believe MTO is planning to add some lanes in a similar fashion through Scarborough in the next couple of years as it is rebuilt as well. Interestingly, even Toronto is going to be adding a few auxiliary lanes in a few spots on the Gardiner with it's rebuild work too, near the Humber River.

I don't expect a wholesale reconstruction specifically designed to add 2 or 3 lanes though, as interesting as that may be. There isn't really space and it would be too expensive and politically contentious (Toronto would likely oppose it).

Am I the only one bothered by the widening of the 401 between Windsor and London? That's a $1b+ project with not really much material benefits. The cable barrier already being installed adds most of the safety benefits the widening does anyway. That money would have been better spent in spots that need the additional capacity more, like the 401 heading east towards Kingston or any one of the overcapacity freeways in the GTA like the 400 or 403.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

MTO has been performing minor lane adjustments as it rebuilds sections of the central 401 over the last decade. MTO added a westbound collectors lane between the 400 and 409 a few years ago for example.

I believe MTO is planning to add some lanes in a similar fashion through Scarborough in the next couple of years as it is rebuilt as well. Interestingly, even Toronto is going to be adding a few auxiliary lanes in a few spots on the Gardiner with it's rebuild work too, near the Humber River.

I don't expect a wholesale reconstruction specifically designed to add 2 or 3 lanes though, as interesting as that may be. There isn't really space and it would be too expensive and politically contentious (Toronto would likely oppose it).

Am I the only one bothered by the widening of the 401 between Windsor and London? That's a $1b+ project with not really much material benefits. The cable barrier already being installed adds most of the safety benefits the widening does anyway. That money would have been better spent in spots that need the additional capacity more, like the 401 heading east towards Kingston or any one of the overcapacity freeways in the GTA like the 400 or 403.

Fast drivers like me don’t like it when an 18-wheeler just pulls out into the left lane and cuts us off.

Actually...
Maybe I’m finally starting to understand the difference between feel-good and useful projects...

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Am I the only one bothered by the widening of the 401 between Windsor and London? That's a $1b+ project with not really much material benefits. The cable barrier already being installed adds most of the safety benefits the widening does anyway. That money would have been better spent in spots that need the additional capacity more, like the 401 heading east towards Kingston or any one of the overcapacity freeways in the GTA like the 400 or 403.

This is mostly a safety improvement, not as intended as a capacity improvement.

I drove this stretch maybe 10 times a year pre-covid. While I agree money could be spent elsewhere I do see the need. The stretches of road are long and boring and the truck traffic is very high. It's annoying as a driver to try and pass so many trucks or have trucks in both lanes. You also have a car right on your ass if you're trying to pass a truck or behind a truck... very unsafe. Not to mention the crosswinds this area is known for.
-Also the truckers on this stretch I feel are half-asleep... they veer out of their lane often and that + the current design of the highway makes people feel unsafe. (I don't get the same feeling driving the 402 or 403's 4-lane stretches)

Whenever I drive, or whoever I drive with, breathe a sigh of relief once we reach Tilbury where the highway opens to 6 lanes with a median.

Also the 401 extension in Windsor cost billions and that's a 6 lane highway- may as well spend a bil more I guess to link this to the rest of the 401's 6 lane stretch in London.

Traffic volumes will likely increase on this stretch too when the new bridge is built.

[Dengler Avenue]

On that note, I wonder where C-K O.P.P. will station themselves moving forward. Or will they even bother with speed traps on the 401 anymore once it becomes “safer”?

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by haljackey

This is mostly a safety improvement, not as intended as a capacity improvement.

I drove this stretch maybe 10 times a year pre-covid. While I agree money could be spent elsewhere I do see the need. The stretches of road are long and boring and the truck traffic is very high. It's annoying as a driver to try and pass so many trucks or have trucks in both lanes. You also have a car right on your ass if you're trying to pass a truck or behind a truck... very unsafe. Not to mention the crosswinds this area is known for.
-Also the truckers on this stretch I feel are half-asleep... they veer out of their lane often and that + the current design of the highway makes people feel unsafe. (I don't get the same feeling driving the 402 or 403's 4-lane stretches)

Whenever I drive, or whoever I drive with, breathe a sigh of relief once we reach Tilbury where the highway opens to 6 lanes with a median.

Also the 401 extension in Windsor cost billions and that's a 6 lane highway- may as well spend a bil more I guess to link this to the rest of the 401's 6 lane stretch in London.

Traffic volumes will likely increase on this stretch too when the new bridge is built.

There are always lots of projects that are needed - it's just a question of what's needed more. It sort of reminds me of my extended family living in Saint John complaining about "traffic" on NB-1 through the city at rush hour - which is really just a large enough volume that you can't go whatever speed you want, with traffic still moving at 110km/h.. Maybe not ideal, but not exactly a major issue. Everything is relative, and while the 401 along that stretch likely doesn't operate perfectly, it probably operates better than many other highways in the province.

[haljackey]

Yes it is all relative and depends on funding. Southwest region gets its own projects regardless if there is more needed elsewhere in the province.

If all the money went to central Ontario, the rest of the province would get annoyed. Ideally you spend the money for the most benefit but once you mix in politics that isn't always so.

People in London love to complain that their tax dollars are going to fund stuff in Toronto, for example.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

On that note, I wonder where C-K O.P.P. will station themselves moving forward. Or will they even bother with speed traps on the 401 anymore once it becomes “safer”?

They found places to set up speed traps on other sections of the highway when it was widened and concrete medians put in, they will do it down there as well. They just sit on the side of the road, on a ramp, or have a guy with the radar up on an overpass radioing down to the chase cars on the side. In London, there is a spot between Highbury and Veterans on the eastbound side with an MTO traffic camera, that looks like it was specifically put there for a cop to sit in wait. They could put up a sign that says "OPP Speed Trap Ahead" and they would still gets lots of business.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@42.9404135,-...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

[north 42]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Yes it all depends on funding. Southwest region gets its own projects regardless if there is more needed elsewhere in the province.

If all the money went to central Ontario, the rest of the province would get annoyed. Ideally you spend the money for the most benefit but once you mix in politics that isn't always so.

Exactly! What’s annoying are the people who feel that the GTA deserves everything at the other regions expense.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by north 42

Exactly! What’s annoying are the people who feel that the GTA deserves everything at the other regions expense.

It’s not “at their expense” if everything is operating fine there.

It’s not like Windsor would be left to strangle in its own traffic. The problem is the GTA grows by the entire population of Windsor every 2 years and needs incredible amounts of infrastructure to handle that. It may seem like it’s leaving other areas “behind” but if you look at it on a per capita basis the GTA typically gets far less spending than other areas of the province. Projects like this and the 400 extension are incredibly expensive per capita that they serve. The 400 extension, budgeted at $2 billion roughly, serves about 160,000 people in Sudbury, or $12,500 per person. That’s equivalent to $85 billion in infrastructure spending in the GTA.

I get the politics behind it, it’s just a shame in my mind to see areas like Waterloo get frig tons of provincial infrastructure funding for a huge LRT network and massive freeways meaning basically no rush hour congestion while areas of the GTA have basically round the clock congestion on many roads without clear plans to address it and transit systems literally bursting at the seams. Seeing situations like that makes it difficult to really say “it takes me more than a few seconds to pass a truck on the drive to Windsor” as being a real priority for limited infrastructure dollars.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

They found places to set up speed traps on other sections of the highway when it was widened and concrete medians put in, they will do it down there as well. They just sit on the side of the road, on a ramp, or have a guy with the radar up on an overpass radioing down to the chase cars on the side. In London, there is a spot between Highbury and Veterans on the eastbound side with an MTO traffic camera, that looks like it was specifically put there for a cop to sit in wait. They could put up a sign that says "OPP Speed Trap Ahead" and they would still gets lots of business.
Oh right. How could I forget that 401 used to have only 4 lanes west of KWC, and yes, Exit 195 looks eerily familiar.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@42.9404135,-...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

Originally Posted by haljackey

Yes it is all relative and depends on funding. Southwest region gets its own projects regardless if there is more needed elsewhere in the province.

If all the money went to central Ontario, the rest of the province would get annoyed. Ideally you spend the money for the most benefit but once you mix in politics that isn't always so.

People in London love to complain that their tax dollars are going to fund stuff in Toronto, for example.

Originally Posted by north 42

Exactly! What’s annoying are the people who feel that the GTA deserves everything at the other regions expense.

I... agree. LoL. And even I think that we’ve spent too much on the 401 and too little elsewhere. Then again, I think 6-laning this stretch is worthwhile.

=====
Also what does MTO have in mind the ultimate configuration of a usual 400 series freeway? (HOV + passenger vehicle lane x2 + truck lane x2) x2? I’ve always thought that 8 lanes will be the ultimate configuration.

[Innsertnamehere]

MTOs standard configuration for new build highways has typically been enough space for 10 lanes ultimately, though that varies. The 404 extension was built for 10 lanes south of the Bradford Bypass and 8 north of it, the 407 extension was built for 10 lanes on the mainline and 8 lanes on the 412/418, and the 427 was built at its “ultimate” design immediately from my understanding.

Rural freeways like the 400-417 extension aren’t really designed with a specific widened amount in mind since they aren’t really seen as ever needing that much capacity, though they could probably fit 10 lanes.

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

The problem is the GTA grows by the entire population of Windsor every 2 years and needs incredible amounts of infrastructure to handle that. It may seem like it’s leaving other areas “behind” but if you look at it on a per capita basis the GTA typically gets far less spending than other areas of the province. Projects like this and the 400 extension are incredibly expensive per capita that they serve. The 400 extension, budgeted at $2 billion roughly, serves about 160,000 people in Sudbury, or $12,500 per person. That’s equivalent to $85 billion in infrastructure spending in the GTA.

I get the politics behind it, it’s just a shame in my mind to see areas like Waterloo get frig tons of provincial infrastructure funding for a huge LRT network and massive freeways meaning basically no rush hour congestion while areas of the GTA have basically round the clock congestion on many roads without clear plans to address it and transit systems literally bursting at the seams. Seeing situations like that makes it difficult to really say “it takes me more than a few seconds to pass a truck on the drive to Windsor” as being a real priority for limited infrastructure dollars.

Your points are noted, and the only answer is 'politics'.

If Greater Toronto became it's own province it would have more cash to do things.

However, that would mean areas in the rest of the province would have next to no money for their own projects. Once you get outside of any city, there will never be a large enough tax base to do anything, let alone maintain what is already there. Having a town of like 2,000 people simply repave their main street would be the per-capita equivalent to Greater Toronto getting a new subway line.

But back on the topic of the 401, it's the lifeblood of Ontario. Any investment to improve its operations is going to be a benefit to the entire province, regardless of what the per-capita cost ratio is. It's also logistically easier to improve the London-Tilbury stretch vs something greatly more needed like the missing collectors between the 427 and 409. Sure one is going to be of greater benefit to the other, but it is financially and politically more difficult to do.

Basically Southwest region only needs one infrastructure enhancement project done at a time to keep the people happy. Right now there are two on just the 401 which does seem like it's a little generous (this + the widening in Cambridge).
-However once these projects are complete the 401 shouldn't need any enhancement west of the Golden Horseshoe for quite some time. It will just need some cash here and there to maintain the thing and replace the old overpasses when necessary.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Traffic volumes will likely increase on this stretch too when the new bridge is built.

I think this is likely the biggest reasoning, though politics definitely plays a huge role. And not just total traffic, but truck traffic.

The new bridge and vastly improved access to it in Windsor make everything in the GTA and southwestern Ontario more accessible to the border, leading to growth in truck freight.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by north 42

Exactly! What’s annoying are the people who feel that the GTA deserves everything at the other regions expense.

Did you know that there are several long stretches of both the 401 and 417 in eastern Ontario that don't even have paved shoulders, let alone a cable median barrier?

In fact, the only region of Ontario where all of the 400-series highways have fully paved shoulders is southwestern Ontario. The 400 has a stretch in Simcoe County where there aren't paved shoulders, as an aside from the aforementioned sections in the east.

The QEW between Fort Erie and Niagara Falls has a median that's only 7.5m in width and is fully unprotected, but sure, the MTO is ignoring southwestern residents by not replacing one modern highway barrier with another one.

Hell, the box beam barrier on Highway 400 still hasn't fully been replaced through Barrie yet. What do you think is a bigger safety hazard, a fairly wide depressed median with a brand new cable median barrier, or a 40 year old steel beam barrier that's been struck hundreds of times, that is protected by almost no paved shoulder area?

The RIRO section of Highway 11 north of Orillia still doesn't have fully paved shoulders either for that matter.

What’s annoying are the people who feel that Southwestern Ontario deserves everything at the other regions expense.

[Dengler Avenue]

What’s annoying are the people who feel that Southwestern Ontario deserves everything at the other regions expense.

Don’t we all feel the same way?
Just like what haljackey said, politics, politics, politics. No wonder politician’s such a thankless job: low pay and angry faces.
But holy smokes, the median on QEW is only 7.5 m wide? I heard that median needs to be at least 30 ft (9.144 m) wide to even have a separating effect.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

MTO has been performing minor lane adjustments as it rebuilds sections of the central 401 over the last decade. MTO added a westbound collectors lane between the 400 and 409 a few years ago for example.

I believe MTO is planning to add some lanes in a similar fashion through Scarborough in the next couple of years as it is rebuilt as well. Interestingly, even Toronto is going to be adding a few auxiliary lanes in a few spots on the Gardiner with it's rebuild work too, near the Humber River.

I don't expect a wholesale reconstruction specifically designed to add 2 or 3 lanes though, as interesting as that may be. There isn't really space and it would be too expensive and politically contentious (Toronto would likely oppose it).

Am I the only one bothered by the widening of the 401 between Windsor and London? That's a $1b+ project with not really much material benefits. The cable barrier already being installed adds most of the safety benefits the widening does anyway. That money would have been better spent in spots that need the additional capacity more, like the 401 heading east towards Kingston or any one of the overcapacity freeways in the GTA like the 400 or 403.

I agree that widening the 401 through C-K is a waste of money. If nothing else, I take some solace in the fact that the only project where construction is actually funded is the segment through Tilbury. Actual funding hasn't been committed to widening any other segments of the 401 through C-K or Elgin. From the London end, they'll have to do a lot just to widen the portion from the 402to the western city limit of London.

I'm of the opinion that the current widening project was just a vote buying project for southwestern Ontario to ensure that that Chatham and Elgin counties continue to vote red. I think the province will continue to commit just enough money to 401 widening projects as long as the PCs are in power to ensure that they keep power in that area. (Judging by the responses on this group, widening the 401 certainly does seem to be an effective method of buying votes).

If the residents of southwestern Ontario actually cared about maximizing highway safety, they'd be advocating for twinning both Highway 3 to Leamington and Highway 40 around Sarnia. You get far more bang for the buck by twinning a highway than by replacing one style of median barrier with another one.

With respect to the 401 through Toronto. The MTO recently had a consultant assignment for a pre-design study that looked at the replacement of the Dixon and Martin Grove highway bridges. The purpose of the pre-design study was to consider traffic operations between the 410 and the 400 with various bridge replacement configurations at Dixon and Martin Grove.

I've never seen it, but apparently the MTO did a functional design to extend the collectors westerly through the 427 interchange back in the late 90s. I don't know anything official, but I'd guess that when it does come time to replace the Dixon and Martin Grove bridges they will extend the collector lanes from the 409 to the eastern edge of the 427 interchange. I doubt they'd go through the 427 interchange at this point, but I do expect a major widening project to be undertaken on the 401 through western Toronto in the medium (10-20 years from now) term.

[jammer139]

As mentioned already the 401 is the lifeline of Ontario being the busiest expressway in North America. The folks who believe all infrastructure money should goto the GTA have forgotten that the 401 delivers them their goods and services and also transports their garbage out of town. Green Lane ring any bells? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Lane_Landfill

[sonysnob]

And before Green Lane opened up all of those trucks drove 2 hours further down the 401 into Michigan and actually would have used the section of the 401 that we are arguing about.