Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by elly63

You guys are forgetting one thing, content. If Bell is behind a bid for the new Expos they get 160+ nights of programming with decent ratings. They will pay for that, especially now that Rogers controls the big properties.

That's a pretty good point.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by elly63

You guys are forgetting one thing, content. If Bell is behind a bid for the new Expos they get 160+ nights of programming with decent ratings. They will pay for that, especially now that Rogers controls the big properties.

I can't imagine decent ratings for 160 games would be worth $200 plus million in expansion fees (minimum) and a new ballpark.

**Edit

Wow. So the average mlb team is valued at 1.2 billion. Easily could be $1.5 to $2 billion with new ballpark.

[Acajack]

I don't know that it will make it viable in a sure-fire way, but TV ratings do factor into it in a big way. TVA Sports or RDS will also be big players as they'll be looking for content to fill air time. They already are, so...

[Migs]

UofR Rams first to practice on new turf at New Mosaic Stadium


RRI

[elly63]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

I can't imagine decent ratings for 160 games would be worth $200 plus million in expansion fees (minimum) and a new ballpark.

Wow. So the average mlb team is valued at 1.2 billion. Easily could be $1.5 to $2 billion with new ballpark.

You have to look at what the costs are for one hour of original programming. Getting the Expos for Bell is at the very least 500 hours of programming per year not including ancillary programs. Good programming doesn't come cheap, there's a reason why poker shows are cheap, because nobody watches them, they're filler.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by elly63

You have to look at what the costs are for one hour of original programming. Getting the Expos for Bell is at the very least 500 hours of programming per year not including ancillary programs. Good programming doesn't come cheap, there's a reason why poker shows are cheap, because nobody watches them, they're filler.

Yup, and somehow I doubt that corporations spend untold billions on CRTC licences and simply setting up a new sports network in order to settle for "cashing in" on the meagre ratings for low-profile stuff like poker and BMX.

They've got their eye on big ticket properties that are already established like the NHL or the CFL (yes, the CFL is a big TV sports property in Canada) or ones that can hypothetically be built up into one like the reborn Expos.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by elly63

You have to look at what the costs are for one hour of original programming. Getting the Expos for Bell is at the very least 500 hours of programming per year not including ancillary programs. Good programming doesn't come cheap, there's a reason why poker shows are cheap, because nobody watches them, they're filler.

Yeah, I have. I can't see broadcast rights for the New Expos being higher than 50 million a year and it probably would be closer to 30. If the franchise fee is determine on market value of the existing teams than I don't see much value in this for a broadcaster with having to build a new ballpark as well. A minority stake in the new franchise does make sense. Just need that multi-billionaire.

[esquire]

A team in Montreal would probably be quite a long term play. Think about it, Montreal is a relatively lukewarm baseball market, so once the initial euphoria wears off there would be real work to do to keep people buying tickets. And Canadians outside of Montreal aren't going to all of a sudden adopt the reborn Expos... it would take something exciting like a prolonged playoff run to make that happen, and who knows how long it would take for a team to get to that point.

So you're really talking about a MLB team that would have the Quebec TV market to itself and maybe some of the Maritimes and parts of Ontario near the QC border, along with a somewhat lukewarm (and notoriously fickle) fanbase in its hometown. Not really a surefire recipe for success... if I were a prospective MLB team owner I'd have to say that cities like Portland, Charlotte or Austin might be more appealing, especially when you consider the tendency of American cities to pay for pricy new sports venues for team owners.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Yeah, I have. I can't see broadcast rights for the New Expos being higher than 50 million a year and it probably would be closer to 30. If the franchise fee is determine on market value of the existing teams than I don't see much value in this for a broadcaster with having to build a new ballpark as well. A minority stake in the new franchise does make sense. Just need that multi-billionaire.

Are you talking about English TV rights or English and French TV rights?

I would say that given the Blue Jays' hegemony across the rest of the country, the new Expos would have a hard time making a significant dent there. At least for quite some time. So the French language rights would likely be the biggest property of the two.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Are you talking about English TV rights or English and French TV rights?

I would say that given the Blue Jays' hegemony across the rest of the country, the new Expos would have a hard time making a significant dent there. At least for quite some time. So the French language rights would likely be the biggest property of the two.

They would have me right away. I was a huge Expos fan and have never really warmed to the Blue Jays.

[WhipperSnapper]

Sport teams are toys for billionaires. Like all billionaires toys, they tend to appreciate in value over time as there's more billionaires than teams but, there's little value in actually holding on to one. The Blue Jays are one of very few teams corporately owned. Not that it matters too much, the leagues aren't interested in corporate ownership either. They probably wouldn't award an expansion franchise to a corporation.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Sport teams are toys for billionaires. Like all billionaires toys, they tend to appreciate in value over time as there's more billionaires than teams but, there's little value in actually holding on to one. The Blue Jays are one of very few teams corporately owned. Not that it matters too much, the leagues aren't interested in corporate ownership either. They probably wouldn't award an expansion franchise to a corporation.

MLB doesn't have a similar rule to the NFL (which wants individual owners only), does it?

I doubt you could find a billionaire who'd be willing to bankroll an MLB team in Montreal by himself BTW.

[vaportrail]

Originally Posted by Migs

UofR Rams first to practice on new turf at New Mosaic Stadium


RRI

Sweet photo. What a magnificent-looking facility. It's gotta take some of the sting outta the recent losing seasons. The only complaint I can make (just from photos) is that I wish more of the north end-zone seats could have been placed between the end zones, instead. That's a lot of fans a long way from the action.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by vaportrail

The only complaint I can make (just from photos) is that I wish more of the north end-zone seats could have been placed between the end zones, instead. That's a lot of fans a long way from the action.

Wait til you sit in the seats. The end zone seats are very good and the size of the video board will give you all the detail you need.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Are you talking about English TV rights or English and French TV rights?

I would say that given the Blue Jays' hegemony across the rest of the country, the new Expos would have a hard time making a significant dent there. At least for quite some time. So the French language rights would likely be the biggest property of the two.

The Expos were my team when I was young. I think a return of baseball to Montreal would be very popular here in the Maritimes.

Right now the Blue Jays are Canada's team by default. No offense to the Jays, but if an MLB team returned to Montreal, I think there would be a significant following amongst anglo Quebecers, anglophones from eastern Ontario and from the Maritimes. That amounts to several million people.

I think it's imperative though that if Montreal does return to the fold that it be located in the American League so that the Montreal/Toronto rivalry can flourish.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The Expos were my team when I was young. I think a return of baseball to Montreal would be very popular here in the Maritimes.

Right now the Blue Jays are Canada's team by default. No offense to the Jays, but if an MLB team returned to Montreal, I think there would be a significant following amongst anglo Quebecers, anglophones from eastern Ontario and from the Maritimes. That amounts to several million people.

I think you're largely right. But barring a surge of on-field success by the Expos and a serious multi-year tanking by the Blue Jays, I don't see the Expos taking away any more than maybe 20% (at the very most - even that may be ambitious) of the attention and fan support outside of Quebec.

[big W]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am part of a fairly wide circle of Québécois dads in their 30s and 40s. This group almost never talks about baseball, I can tell you. The rare times it comes up would mostly be when we're waxing nostalgic about the Expos of the Andre Dawson, Gary Carter years.

Sports talk is primarily about hockey by a wide margin, then football, soccer, F1 and maybe even boxing, UFC and tennis. Baseball comes up less often than any of these.

I do think that if the Expos came back some members of this gang might be up for going to a game a year in Montreal as a boys' outing. But this would be an "event" thing, not a baseball fandom thing. And would quickly wane if ever the Expos came to suck enough for the in-person game experience to become dull.

Its not just Quebecois that don't talk baseball. Here in Edmonton its very similar for people in the same age group. You don't find many people talk about baseball either. Its Hockey, Hockey, Hockey, Football, Soccer, Basketball and then come other sports of which baseball if one of them. Are there lots of people who like baseball, yes they are out there but its mostly people from an older generation and some people getting some Jays fever but reality that is a pretty small segment. I would say that in most of Canada though the game is not foreign and if you get a local team, you should be able to cultivate a following fairly quickly if they do well (both MLB or AAA teams depending on the market).

[big W]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think you're largely right. But barring a surge of on-field success by the Expos and a serious multi-year tanking by the Blue Jays, I don't see the Expos taking away any more than maybe 20% (at the very most - even that may be ambitious) of the attention and fan support outside of Quebec.

Yes and no. If they do well they could draw younger fans and build upon that. I know many people who's fathers were from Atlantic Canada and live in Alberta now. While some of the dads were Habs fans or Bruins fans when it came to hockey along with being Oilers fans they are all generally Expos fans and many kids that did watch baseball only cheered for the Jays be default (they were successful in the 90's and the expos went away and only the Jays on tv). The reborn expos could cultivate a fan base from kids watching with their grand fathers for example or kids not cheering for the new team (if successful) and going against their fathers.

Plus, there is enough anti-Toronto sports fans in Canada that they could do well.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by big W

Yes and no. If they do well they could draw younger fans and build upon that. I know many people who's fathers were from Atlantic Canada and live in Alberta now. While some of the dads were Habs fans or Bruins fans when it came to hockey along with being Oilers fans they are all generally Expos fans and many kids that did watch baseball only cheered for the Jays be default (they were successful in the 90's and the expos went away and only the Jays on tv). The reborn expos could cultivate a fan base from kids watching with their grand fathers for example or kids not cheering for the new team (if successful) and going against their fathers.

Plus, there is enough anti-Toronto sports fans in Canada that they could do well.

Good points. But your locals still have to be your bread and butter. Especially with all those weeknight games.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by big W

Its not just Quebecois that don't talk baseball. Here in Edmonton its very similar for people in the same age group. You don't find many people talk about baseball either. Its Hockey, Hockey, Hockey, Football, Soccer, Basketball and then come other sports of which baseball if one of them. Are there lots of people who like baseball, yes they are out there but its mostly people from an older generation and some people getting some Jays fever but reality that is a pretty small segment. I would say that in most of Canada though the game is not foreign and if you get a local team, you should be able to cultivate a following fairly quickly if they do well (both MLB or AAA teams depending on the market).

It's the same for me in Calgary. I'm 30 and the few people I know that talk or follow baseball are usually Caucasian and over 30. Among my friends over and under 30, it is much more likely to get someone who doesn't follow basketball or soccer down to the pub to watch a Raptors or Arsenal game than the Jays.