Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by niwell

There's still some Afrikaans street signs in Johannesburg that clearly date back to the early 90s (or prior). Usually in older suburbs where they haven't had to be replaced - anything newer is English only. Interesting because the areas I saw them in have always been predominantly English as a first language - probably a bit of a fuck you to the "liberal English elite" during Apartheid. I didn't see much of any Afrikaans signage in Pretoria which is still predominantly Afrikaner in the city proper (outside the downtown core).

Example with one English and one Afrikaans sign: https://maps.app.goo.gl/4Hw9DAA5fJiWkbLg9

The Afrikaans music and film industry is going strong though - probably more than ever considering they do consider their language to be somewhat threatened. The Netherlands is also a pretty big secondary market for this, and it's interesting to see a tour schedule that goes something like: Pretoria, Krugersdorp, Bloemfontein, Stellenbosch, Amsterdam, Rotterdam (skipping Johannesburg and Cape Town proper).

One neat aspect about Cape Town are its bilingual English/Afrikaans radio stations (for some reason the CRTC does not allow bilingual radio stations in Canada). The DJs switch in and out of both languages; news might be English at the top of hour and Afrikaans at the bottom of hour; or vice versa. Commercials are a mix of both languages.

Here's an example of a bilingual road sign in Stellenbosch:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pa...e8b9?entry=ttu

[niwell]

^Yeah I noticed that as well! In Gauteng Province they have isiZulu djs interspersed with English on some radio stations. Never really thought about it but it is odd that CRTC rules would prohibit that.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I flip between whether it's the big neighbours or the actual legally enforced linguistic borders within Switzerland itself that make the language situation so stable in that country.

Or maybe it's a mix.

Though if you're a minority, having lots of people just across the border who speak the same language as you, won't necessarily ensure your survival unless you have institutional support (and ideally, protection) for your language in the place where you actually live.

It's the history that is different. The Francophone cantons joined Switzerland as equals. They were not conquered and submitted, living under German domination for 200 years, with Geneva majority German-speaking at some point due to inflows of German-speaking immigrants ruling the city and its businesses and lording over the Francophones.

In the places where the Francophones were dominated by the Germanophones (namely Jura), there was, and still is, some resentment (including bomb attacks in the 1970s).





PS: On a side note, the Germanophone authorities of the Canton of Bern have recently agreed to cede one important Francophone town to the Canton of Jura. The transfer should take place in 2026 I believe. This is equivalent to New Brunswick agreeing to cede Edmundston to the province of Québec. Also, the city in the Canton of Bern that is equivalent to Moncton in New Brunswick is currently about to become majority Francophone (after having been majority Germanophone for centuries), because of the new immigrants who mainly integrate in the Francophone community. The Germanophone authorities of the Canton of Bern are quite relaxed about it.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by niwell

Was told that while Swiss German is largely understandable to High German speakers

That is not true. I would beware of German speakers, who have a tendency to downplay the differences between the dialects and standard German, same as the Arabic speakers who will often pretend they can understand Arabic speakers from other parts of the Arab world, which is not true in reality.

Standard German speakers have a hard time understating the Swiss dialects (of which there are many, and which are not mutually intelligible... people from Zurich cannot understand the people from Valais if they speak in their dialect for instance).

You can check this episode from Easy German where they covered exactly that. Those German guys were trying to understand Zurich German, and it was hard! And keep in mind these are people who prepare language videos, so who are into languages more than the average folk (or Volk).

• Video Link

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

In fact you can't get service in French at all in other Cantons and even the train staff change on inter-Canton train service and French service becomes halting.

You can get services in French in the Canton of Bern, as a part of that canton is Francophone, so cantonal services must be available in both German and French. In practice however, it's gonna be like New Brunswick: if you're in the Germanophone part of the Canton of Bern, your access to French services will be as limited as in the Anglophone part of New Brunswick, depending on the language skill levels of the agent you're facing (but the forms should be available in French).

The Francophone Canton of Fribourg also is supposed to have services for the German speakers (because a small part of that canton is Germanophone), but over there the situation for the Germanophones is going to be basically as bad as the situation of the Francophones in Ontario. The cantonal government is not making great efforts to have German services available (the cantonal authorities of Bern make more efforts to have French services available).

Apart from these two cantons, there are no requirements for bilingual services (except at the federal level of course).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by big T

Solidly anecdotal, but when I think about all the instances where I had trouble getting service in French in Montreal lately, it's almost exclusively fast food workers and delivery guys. Overwhelmingly young South Asians

This happens sometimes in Paris too with South Asian guys (numerous in phone stores where you pick up Amazon deliveries here). I have the solution to that: speak and give orders only in French. They manage to understand what you mean somehow. I call that the 'swim or sink' method.

I would never ever talk to them in English. Never.

[harls]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I would never ever talk to them in English. Never.

Yet here you are, writing (checks notes...) English.

I don't get this 'sticking it to them' attitude. You like watching people squirm I guess. I don't.

[MolsonExport]

French is threatened, so lets spend half our waking hours on an English website, conversing in English.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by harls

I don't get this 'sticking it to them' attitude.

Most North American Anglos don’t.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by harls

Yet here you are, writing (checks notes...) English.

I don't get this 'sticking it to them' attitude. You like watching people squirm I guess. I don't.

You are a South Asian vendor in Paris?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

Most North American Anglos don’t.

Lots of other Europeans would react exactly the same as me. Try being a vendor in Madrid and speaking English to your customers. I don't know one single Spaniard who would make an effort to respond in English. It's Spanish or sink.

Only perhaps the Dutch and the Scandinavians would bend over and speak English to a vendor in their own cities, and then not all of them, and perhaps not after a few days of 'exotic discovery'.

[lio45]

And the Irish and the Welsh, obviously.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

And the Irish and the Welsh, obviously.

Well... (PS: as I said a few weeks or months ago, if they sound "British", that's not because of contamination from British English, but that's because Welsh phonology heavily influenced the Germanic language brought to Great Britain by the Anglo-Saxons 15 centuries ago).

• Video Link

[big T]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

French is threatened, so lets spend half our waking hours on an English website, conversing in English.
[/IMG]

Heh. For the record, I think French is quite healthy in Quebec, including in Montreal. In fact I think this city is as French as it's ever been. Personal opinion of course.

What I was describing, I see as a symptom of a specific problem with federal immigration policy and diploma mills. It's quite visible and it tends to ruffle feathers, but I don't think it's a real threat to French, nor is it a political force in the making. Those folks are being taken advantage of, and they tend to not stick around once they figure that out.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Lots of other Europeans would react exactly the same as me. Try being a vendor in Madrid and speaking English to your customers. I don't know one single Spaniard who would make an effort to respond in English. It's Spanish or sink.

Only perhaps the Dutch and the Scandinavians would bend over and speak English to a vendor in their own cities, and then not all of them, and perhaps not after a few days of 'exotic discovery'.

Yeah Scandinavians and Dutch are really losing their language and suffering economically too.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

French is threatened, so lets spend half our waking hours on an English website, conversing in English.

Fighting the good fight.

Spreading the word.

Somebody's gotta do it.

Our messaging wouldn't be out there in English if it wasn't for us.

It happens we are good in the language in addition to being charming and witty.

So why not?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

This happens sometimes in Paris too with South Asian guys (numerous in phone stores where you pick up Amazon deliveries here). I have the solution to that: speak and give orders only in French. They manage to understand what you mean somehow. I call that the 'swim or sink' method.

I would never ever talk to them in English. Never.

Coincidence… this is from today’s paper:

https://www.journaldemontreal.com/20...in-de-seffacer

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

Coincidence… this is from today’s paper:

https://www.journaldemontreal.com/20...in-de-seffacer

I gave the census stats a while ago.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Between the 2011 and 2021 censuses, the number of people living in Québec whose mother tongue was English rose from 700,415 in 2011 to 843,945 in 2021. As a result, their share in the total population of Québec rose from 9.0% in 2011 to 10.0% in 2021.

The number of people living in Québec for whom English was the language most spoken at home rose from 912,360 in 2011 to 1,111,670 in 2021. That means their share in the total population of Québec rose from 11.7% in 2011 to 13.2% in 2021.

The number of workers in Québec for whom English is the main language at work rose from 675,165 in 2011 to 798,800 in 2021. That means their share in the total number of workers in Québec rose from 17.4% in 2011 to 19.5% in 2021.

Only 10.0% of the population of Québec have English as their native tongue, but 19.5% work in an environment where English is the main language at work.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Stats for Québec:

Mother tongue:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 79.7% >> 77.8%
- English: 9.0% >> 10.0%

Language most spoken at home:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 82.5% >> 81.0%
- English: 11.7% >> 13.2%

Main language at work:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 87.6% >> 85.3%
- English: 17.4% >> 19.5%

French is on the retreat whatever the metric considered.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Data for Québec outside of the Montréal and Ottawa-Gatineau census metro areas.

Mother tongue:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 93.9% >> 93.1%
- English: 3.8% >> 4.1%

Language most spoken at home:
2011 >> 2021
- French: 95.0% >> 94.5%
- English: 3.6% >> 4.1%

[Acajack]

Yes the official statistical trends for the French language (coming from the Canadian federal government itself) are not good.

The explanation used to be that French's share was declining due to the temporary effects of immigrants speaking their own languages for the first generation or two.

Now we see it's not really (just) that that is going on.

[big T]

Not to be dismissive, but let’s keep in mind the multiple ways the stats can be read.

Anecdotal, as always, but since the pandemic and the rise of remote I’ve seen several Francophones here get positions with US companies. They pay a lot better, the work environment (virtual) is awesome and you get to work on the bleeding edge.
These are still Francophones or bilingual (loi 101 kids), they speak French at home and their kids all do/will (if they end up having them) go to French schools.

How do you counter this kind of French-at-work decline? You need an economy that rivals the largest and most attractive one on the planet, which happens to be right next door. (Or, of course, you could make it illegal or at least extremely unpalatable for people to do the remote thing from here, but then you’d just screw over your young and bright and push them to leave). Not an easy one to solve.

As for the French at home stat, assuming that is all due to immigration (I don’t really see how established Francophones would suddenly turn Anglo, save for specific exceptions), I think the 2nd generation argument remains valid. Loi 101 is a powerful tool. We’re in an immigration glut right now, so I continue to think this is heavily impacting the numbers, but we all know it’s unsustainable. I’m thinking this normalizes again when we snap out of this record-breaking insanity.