Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[big T]

Originally Posted by lio45

Exactly. As I said last time we discussed this, in the Swiss analogy, French-German-Italian are North American English and Quebec is the Romansh.

Another thing of note, while I was there I worked with a large corporation with offices spanning the whole country. Almost invariably, whenever there were both French and German speakers present, the meeting would be held in English. Only a handful of the Zurich guys could manage a work conversation in French, and seemingly no one from Lausanne or Geneva had anything beyond middle school German.

This kinda sucked, but it also served as neutral grounds of sorts. Obviously very different from our situation here.

[niwell]

I know a few people who have lived in Switzerland or have family there. Was told that while Swiss German is largely understandable to High German speakers there's enough nuance that it's actually quite hard to become fluent enough to fully operate in a business setting. Also that the learning opportunities were surprisingly scarce. This wasn't the same for French though.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by big T

Another thing of note, while I was there I worked with a large corporation with offices spanning the whole country. Almost invariably, whenever there were both French and German speakers present, the meeting would be held in English. Only a handful of the Zurich guys could manage a work conversation in French, and seemingly no one from Lausanne or Geneva had anything beyond middle school German.

This kinda sucked, but it also served as neutral grounds of sorts. Obviously very different from our situation here.

Yes. Only spent a few weeks there but I had always imagined they were actually bilingual (unlike Canada). In fact you can't get service in French at all in other Cantons and even the train staff change on inter-Canton train service and French service becomes halting.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Franco-Ontariens and Anglo-Quebecers are a fading political force for better or worse. The former being concentrated in relatively slow growing regions of the province of Ontario, the latter effectively forced to operate in French because one is basically unemployed otherwise.

The relative poor economic performance of the Francophone regions of Ontario has served to effectively act as an insulator for language retention for the past few decades. The downside being that those regions are older and in decline. Much in-migration is effectively Anglophone when it does exist, the out-migrants from the region effectively are forced to operate in English in other areas of the province.

Indeed, the effective language lines are hardening along political jurisdiction lines. Part of the reason things are more pleasant in Quebec-RoC relations today as opposed to the past.

About the only exception that may exist well into the late 21st century is francophone New Brunswick.

There is something of a Swiss example for New Brunswick as well, as they do have 1 or 2 bilingual cantons. For example, the canton of Bern that has the federal capital of the same name within it has its westermost portion designated as francophone. Whereas the rest of the canton including the city of Bern is German only.

But almost nowhere in Switzerland (with two exceptions) do you have bilingualism in a single city or community. For example only in the towns of Freiburg-Fribourg and Biel-Bienne will you have public schools that teach in German and public schools that teach in French. Everywhere else it's only in German, only in French or only in Italian.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Franco-Ontariens and Anglo-Quebecers are a fading political force for better or worse. The former being concentrated in relatively slow growing regions of the province of Ontario, the latter effectively forced to operate in French because one is basically unemployed otherwise.
.

I agree that Anglo-Quebecers are a declining political force but not because they are being forced to operate in French that much more or even because their numbers are declining - they're actually growing and growing faster than the francophone population.

But their political influence is definitely declining, because their voice is increasingly absent from the big tent political parties where the francophones are: the CAQ and the PQ right now. Anglos are still very faithful to the Liberals but only 5% of francophones now support the Liberals. Increasingly the Liberals are becoming a party of minorities for anglophones and (some) allophones, with little to no hope of gaining power.

The Parti conservateur du Québec of Éric Duhaime is making overtures to the anglophone community but it remains to be seen where that goes. Plus they're stuck at around 15%, similar to where Québec solidaire is and where some of the more leftist anglophones have sought refuge as well, but that party isn't a good fit for most anglos given their stance on sovereignty, even if it is sometimes a weak commitment.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by big T

Another thing of note, while I was there I worked with a large corporation with offices spanning the whole country. Almost invariably, whenever there were both French and German speakers present, the meeting would be held in English. Only a handful of the Zurich guys could manage a work conversation in French, and seemingly no one from Lausanne or Geneva had anything beyond middle school German.

This kinda sucked, but it also served as neutral grounds of sorts. Obviously very different from our situation here.

Canada is quite unique in the world in that English isn't a "neutral ground" language like it is in most of the world. And in the rare places where English could be said to not be "neutral ground" and rivals with others for true local dominance, it's literally snuffed out every other language that competed with it.

Except here, which is probably due to the fact that French also has a decent amount of global power. Even if it's less than English.

English is too strong for French to completely flourish in Canada, but French is also strong enough for English to not be able to completely overwhelm it here.

Hence the stalemate.

[big T]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I agree that Anglo-Quebecers are a declining political force but not because they are being forced to operate in French that much more or even because their numbers are declining - they're actually growing and growing faster than the francophone population.

But their political influence is definitely declining, because their voice is increasingly absent from the big tent political parties where the francophones are: the CAQ and the PQ right now. Anglos are still very faithful to the Liberals but only 5% of francophones now support the Liberals. Increasingly the Liberals are becoming a party of minorities for anglophones and (some) allophones, with little to no hope of gaining power.

The Parti conservateur du Québec of Éric Duhaime is making overtures to the anglophone community but it remains to be seen where that goes. Plus they're stuck at around 15%, similar to where Québec solidaire is and where some of the more leftist anglophones have sought refuge as well, but that party isn't a good fit for most anglos given their stance on sovereignty, even if it is sometimes a weak commitment.

I don't have the stats at hand (or know if they exist to that level of detail), but my anecdotal impression is also that immigration dynamics in Quebec are very different between francophone (Europe and Africa mainly) and allophone immigrants, especially those from Asia. The latter group seem to move on to other provinces (mostly ON)in large numbers fairly soon after arrival, so the apparent overall increase may just be an artifact of overall increasing immigration country-wide -- and could be reversed if that policy changes.

Also, I think some stats for "allophones" may be lumping in students. So I'm not so sure the actual long-term, non-transient Anglo population is increasing all that much, or at all. Which would help explain the lack of political representation for allophones, if actual demand for representation (by long-term residents) is indeed much smaller than raw numbers would suggest.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yes. Only spent a few weeks there but I had always imagined they were actually bilingual (unlike Canada). In fact you can't get service in French at all in other Cantons and even the train staff change on inter-Canton train service and French service becomes halting.

I've been to Switzerland a couple of times and members of my immediate family were there about a month ago.

They used both French and English in the German parts of the country, depending on who they were dealing with and where.

In theory there is no French service in German areas and no German service in the French areas from anything governmental. Though for stuff like trains yes the crews do switch to speakers of the local language and that's what they prioritize, but a number of the staff do have capacity in the other language and will often use it with you.

Basic conversational knowledge of the "other" Swiss language is about one third of the population in any given region, according to studies I've seen. That is quite a bit lower than knowledge of English in Quebec but way higher than knowledge of French in the ROC.

[niwell]

Good points above.

It's very different from a lot of countries that have multiple languages. In South Africa for instance English is the first language of only about 10% of the population, making it the 5th most spoken first language. However none of the other 11 official languages have enough use outside of local settings to supersede it so English is the de facto neutral ground. Even Afrikaans, which has a *somewhat* similar place in the country as French in Quebec in terms of cultural/media output isn't really absolute anywhere. A conversation between an Afrikaans speaker and isiZulu speaker would default to English 99% of the time.

Another big difference from Canada is that native English speakers speak a second language most of the time - usually Afrikaans but increasingly isiZulo or Xhosa. Most people I met were surprised when I said that most English as a first language speakers in Canada are not in fact fluent in French as well.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by big T

I don't have the stats at hand (or know if they exist to that level of detail), but my anecdotal impression is also that immigration dynamics in Quebec are very different between francophone (Europe and Africa mainly) and allophone immigrants, especially those from Asia. The latter group seem to move on to other provinces (mostly ON)in large numbers fairly soon after arrival, so the apparent overall increase may just be an artifact of overall increasing immigration country-wide -- and could be reversed if that policy changes.

Also, I think some stats for "allophones" may be lumping in students. So I'm not so sure the actual long-term, non-transient Anglo population is increasing all that much, or at all. Which would help explain the lack of political representation for allophones, if actual demand for representation (by long-term residents) is indeed much smaller than raw numbers would suggest.

Interesting points.

I've noticed that the Quebec Liberals, in spite of their retrenchment into minority politics (dans tous les sens du terme) are still very top-heavy with Québécois francophones when it comes to the public faces of the party (elected and non-elected).

Not sure if this is a strategy (so that francophones still see them as a viable option) or if it's a bit related to what you're saying.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

Good points above.

It's very different from a lot of countries that have multiple languages. In South Africa for instance English is the first language of only about 10% of the population, making it the 5th most spoken first language. However none of the other 11 official languages have enough use outside of local settings to supersede it so English is the de facto neutral ground. Even Afrikaans, which has a *somewhat* similar place in the country as French in Quebec in terms of cultural/media output isn't really absolute anywhere. A conversation between an Afrikaans speaker and isiZulu speaker would default to English 99% of the time.

Another big difference from Canada is that native English speakers speak a second language most of the time - usually Afrikaans but increasingly isiZulo or Xhosa. Most people I met were surprised when I said that most English as a first language speakers in Canada are not in fact fluent in French as well.

Yes. Internationally a lot of people expect the average Canadian to be way more bilingual than they actually are. Many are also shocked that all Canadian francophones don't speak English.

Anyway, regarding South Africa, a big surprise for me was that all road signs and (most) store signs even in nearly 100% Afrikaans-speaking areas (even Afrikaner enclave towns) were in English.

[big T]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Interesting points.

I've noticed that the Quebec Liberals, in spite of their retrenchment into minority politics (dans tous les sens du terme) are still very top-heavy with Québécois francophones when it comes to the public faces of the party (elected and non-elected).

Not sure if this is a strategy (so that francophones still see them as a viable option) or if it's a bit related to what you're saying.

Good observation on PLQ leadership, and yes I don't think it's a coincidence.

Solidly anecdotal, but when I think about all the instances where I had trouble getting service in French in Montreal lately, it's almost exclusively fast food workers and delivery guys. Overwhelmingly young South Asians, so a fair guess would be students baited into some diploma mill trying to supplement income, likely with no plans to stick around. Political representation is the last thing on their minds.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Canada is quite unique in the world in that English isn't a "neutral ground" language like it is in most of the world. And in the rare places where English could be said to not be "neutral ground" and rivals with others for true local dominance, it's literally snuffed out every other language that competed with it.

Yeah, I agree with that.

The other global language that's a force to be reckoned with is Spanish. Like English, you can travel across huge swathes of the world and only need Spanish. It's pretty easy to pick up, very easy to spell and (for English speakers), intuitive to pronounce.

In parts of the US where Hispanics make up a plurality, there are quite a few native English speakers who have learned Spanish to communicate with locals. While I think that there are more BBB level French speakers in English Canada than BBB level Spanish speakers in the United States (even in the southern border states), I wouldn't be surprised if the percent of Americans with 20-50 phrases of Spanish in their back pocket to get out of a jam is higher than the percent of English Canadians who could do that in French - particularly if you're just focusing on the part of English Canada that's more than a day's drive away from a French-speaking region.

Somewhat close to where I live in Toronto, there's a burgeoning Latin American community and I've walked into restaurants and stores where I had to speak to the staff in Spanish.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by big T

Quebec to some extent is a matriarchal society. I think this stat tracks very well. It also fully supports my personal experience -- women in business here are bold and ambitious.

And, interestingly, the same is true in blue collar, traditionally male fields like construction. I'm sure it is still challenging to be a woman in those industries, but almost certainly much easier than most everywhere else in the western world. We had a lot of work done on our condo building over the last two years (unfortunately...), and I can't remember the last time I saw a crew without at least one woman in it.

Fair to point out that this is just one very singular cherry picked metric, but that doesn't make it untrue.

Sorry to reply to an old post. I don't doubt that Quebec is a matriarchal society - I'm neither a woman nor Quebecois, so I'll take your word for it.

I just think that the status of women in English Canada is neither objectively bad, nor is it a societal priority here.

In many ways, I'd say that 'feminism' is the Quebec equivalent to 'multiculturalism' in the ROC. The other solitude is maybe a 9/10 on this, rather than a 10/10 and, besides, appeals from one side for the other to improve will kind of fall on deaf ears.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Sorry to reply to an old post. I don't doubt that Quebec is a matriarchal society - I'm neither a woman nor Quebecois, so I'll take your word for it.

I just think that the status of women in English Canada is neither objectively bad, nor is it a societal priority here.

In many ways, I'd say that 'feminism' is the Quebec equivalent to 'multiculturalism' in the ROC. The other solitude is maybe a 9/10 on this, rather than a 10/10 and, besides, appeals from one side for the other to improve will kind of fall on deaf ears.

Your last paragraph would have been my reply to the first two.

I also think that in some ways, multiculturalism (for the ROC) and the status of women (for Quebec) are key points of pride for either society, which is why they often come up in terms of "yay for us!" statements and also finger-pointing at the other.

They also can seep into other issues, like laïcité (secularism).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Yeah, I agree with that.

The other global language that's a force to be reckoned with is Spanish. Like English, you can travel across huge swathes of the world and only need Spanish. It's pretty easy to pick up, very easy to spell and (for English speakers), intuitive to pronounce.

In parts of the US where Hispanics make up a plurality, there are quite a few native English speakers who have learned Spanish to communicate with locals. While I think that there are more BBB level French speakers in English Canada than BBB level Spanish speakers in the United States (even in the southern border states), I wouldn't be surprised if the percent of Americans with 20-50 phrases of Spanish in their back pocket to get out of a jam is higher than the percent of English Canadians who could do that in French - particularly if you're just focusing on the part of English Canada that's more than a day's drive away from a French-speaking region.

Somewhat close to where I live in Toronto, there's a burgeoning Latin American community and I've walked into restaurants and stores where I had to speak to the staff in Spanish.

Competency levels are hard to gauge due to the standards being apples to oranges, but generally speaking it's usually said that 4-5% of the non-Hispanic population in the US can speak Spanish. In Canada our stats are a bit better though still self-reported. I think that the comparable numbers for non-francophone Canadians are just under 10%, though if you take away Anglo-Quebecers, it's more in the 7% range.

You alluded to it, and while they are still a small minority among non-francophone Canadians, there would be very very few Americans who don't have some type of family relationship to Spanish who are as good in Spanish as people like James Moore, Stephen Harper, Paul Wells, Naheed Nenshi, Jagmeet Singh, Arif Virani, Catherine McKenna, Jonathan Wilkinson, Peter Julian, Chris Alexander, Margaret Atwood, Dan McTeague, Wab Kinew, John Ralston Saul, Adrienne Clarkson, Niki Ashton, Chrystia Freeland, etc. are proficient in French.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Somewhat close to where I live in Toronto, there's a burgeoning Latin American community and I've walked into restaurants and stores where I had to speak to the staff in Spanish.

The growth in Latin American (not just Mexican) restaurants in Toronto is staggering. Obviously not on the level of major American cities but it's gone from just a few "authentic" places to tons in a very short time span. St. Clair seems to be an epicentre but a bunch of new establishments on Bloor W, Eglinton and even Roncesvalles. Anyone saying that's a big gap in Toronto's otherwise extremely diverse food scene is now out of date - even if only by a couple years.

I'd be interested to see how this correlates with population/language statistics. Though like some other immigrant groups, restaurants seem to be a common initial entrepreneurial pursuit. Though not the only, as evidenced by the guys (licensed, fwiw) we got to paint our place who were from Guatemala.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes. Internationally a lot of people expect the average Canadian to be way more bilingual than they actually are. Many are also shocked that all Canadian francophones don't speak English.

Anyway, regarding South Africa, a big surprise for me was that all road signs and (most) store signs even in nearly 100% Afrikaans-speaking areas (even Afrikaner enclave towns) were in English.

South Africa is an interesting case study in languages. When I first visited SA in 2010, one could find bilingual road and street signs throughout the Western Cape (Afrikaans and English). On subsequent visits, noticed the signage has now defaulted to English for the most part. Though, the City of Cape Town official signage and branding is in three languages: English, Xhosa, Afrikaans; which is the same for the Western Cape Province. The national retailers in SA use English only signage for the most part; though there one grocery chain in Stellenbosch where the signage was mostly in Afrikaans with some English.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

South Africa is an interesting case study in languages. When I first visited SA in 2010, one could find bilingual road and street signs throughout the Western Cape (Afrikaans and English). On subsequent visits, noticed the signage has now defaulted to English for the most part. Though, the City of Cape Town official signage and branding is in three languages: English, Xhosa, Afrikaans; which is the same for the Western Cape Province. The national retailers in SA use English only signage for the most part; though there one grocery chain in Stellenbosch where the signage was mostly in Afrikaans with some English.

There's still some Afrikaans street signs in Johannesburg that clearly date back to the early 90s (or prior). Usually in older suburbs where they haven't had to be replaced - anything newer is English only. Interesting because the areas I saw them in have always been predominantly English as a first language - probably a bit of a fuck you to the "liberal English elite" during Apartheid. I didn't see much of any Afrikaans signage in Pretoria which is still predominantly Afrikaner in the city proper (outside the downtown core).

Example with one English and one Afrikaans sign: https://maps.app.goo.gl/4Hw9DAA5fJiWkbLg9

The Afrikaans music and film industry is going strong though - probably more than ever considering they do consider their language to be somewhat threatened. The Netherlands is also a pretty big secondary market for this, and it's interesting to see a tour schedule that goes something like: Pretoria, Krugersdorp, Bloemfontein, Stellenbosch, Amsterdam, Rotterdam (skipping Johannesburg and Cape Town proper).

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

In many ways, I'd say that 'feminism' is the Quebec equivalent to 'multiculturalism' in the ROC. The other solitude is maybe a 9/10 on this, rather than a 10/10 and, besides, appeals from one side for the other to improve will kind of fall on deaf ears.

I wonder what the ROC "score" on this matter would be if the arch conservative Prairie Provinces (Alberta, Sask)* were not included. Probably raise the rest of Canada to a 9.5/10 on the feminism scale where Quebec is a 10.

*I'm not saying that all Prairie folk are conservative, or that there aren't arch conservatives in other places (hello rural SW Ontario). But they are more disproportionate in Saskaberta (or is that Alberchewan?).