Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Québécois nationalists have always been vulnerable and sensitive to allegations of xenophobia and anglophobia - the latter being important because anglophones are our only neighbours all around us

I suppose that's what it is. I remember also when that native Hawaiian member of the Hawaii legislative assembly made a speech in the assembly in the Hawaiian language to raise attention to the near extinction of this original language of the islands, she was called "racist".

Catalans are also often called racist, and they are said to feel "superior" to other people (and indeed at the collective level their nationalism can be annoying), but they just don't care. I suppose because Spanish culture is less powerful than Anglo-Saxon culture, so it's easier to brush off the criticism coming from the Hispanosphere.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

"Services in English are way bigger in Quebec".
Perhaps if you are comparing Quebec to Newfoundland, BC, Alberta.

No way when compared to Manitoba, Ontario and especially New Brunswick.

I don't count New Brunswick in that list as they are a officially bilingual province.

90 % of doctors in Québec can speak English, and by law people can demand medical services in English when available. What percentage of Francophones in Manitoba and Ontario can have medical services in French?

Also Québec have 3 English universities and many English cegeps. How many French higher education institutions are there in other provinces?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

However... who cares? As long as people can communicate, why would you care if somebody has an accent or not?

The point of that little digression was whether the voice (both literally and figuratively) of someone from the ROC in a potential future referendum campaign would be beneficial or detrimental to the NON side. I thought Poilevre had no Anglo accent, so I didn't see why he would be detrimental to the NON side if he campaigned in Québec during the referendum campaign, but Acajack believes he still has an accent and would be detrimental to the NON side.

As for Vladimir, my last two requests for a pay rise were alas refused, but they have more important issues to deal with currently.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

I completely understand the concerns the English Universities have with the tuition increases.

However, I selfishly want them to stay because it means I have a better chance of getting into the Mhttps://skyscraperpage.com/forum/images_pb/editor/bold.gifcGill Urban Planning masters program for Autumn 2025

This is something I am unsure of. Are the government restrictions only for undergraduate studies, or do they apply to graduate programs too? If graduate programs are under the same restrictions, then this is just plain stupid!

Graduate level research is how a university like McGill maintains it's world class status. If the best graduate students face barriers they consider unreasonable, then they would likely choose other universities in the US or UK to go to.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The point of that little digression was whether the voice (both literally and figuratively) of someone from the ROC in a potential future referendum campaign would be beneficial or detrimental to the NON side. I thought Poilevre had no Anglo accent, so I didn't see why he would be detrimental to the NON side if he campaigned in Québec during the referendum campaign, but Acajack believes he still has an accent and would be detrimental to the NON side.

As for Vladimir, my last two requests for a pay rise were alas refused, but they have more important issues to deal with currently.

I don't think any politicians from outside Quebec took an active role in the Non campaigns for the 1980 or 1995 Quebec referendums. So there is that precedent that would work against Poilievre taking part.

In both cases it happened that the Prime Minister of Canada at the time was from Quebec. (Not a huge coincidence - most Canadian PMs have been from Quebec since the late 1960s.)

The main faces of the Non campaigns were therefore the Quebec Liberal leader and leader of the Opposition (as the PQ was in power) and the PM of Canada.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

I don't count New Brunswick in that list as they are a officially bilingual province.

90 % of doctors in Québec can speak English, and by law people can demand medical services in English when available. What percentage of Francophones in Manitoba and Ontario can have medical services in French?

Also Québec have 3 English universities and many English cegeps. How many French higher education institutions are there in other provinces?

Comparing Manitoba and Ontario (in French) to Quebec (in English) is a sick joke. The only province that deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as Quebec for the minority language is New Brunswick.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

(Not a huge coincidence - most Canadian PMs have been from Quebec since the late 1960s.)

Aren't the other provinces a bit annoyed with that? I would be.

In Belgium, they have no such qualms with the Francophone minority. Most PMs are now from Flanders, and don't even bother to pretend speaking French anymore.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I suppose that's what it is. I remember also when that native Hawaiian member of the Hawaii legislative assembly made a speech in the assembly in the Hawaiian language to raise attention to the near extinction of this original language of the islands, she was called "racist".

Catalans are also often called racist, and they are said to feel "superior" to other people (and indeed at the collective level their nationalism can be annoying), but they just don't care. I suppose because Spanish culture is less powerful than Anglo-Saxon culture, so it's easier to brush off the criticism coming from the Hispanosphere.

Yes, and angryphones in Quebec go to great lengths to hammer the point that to be against more English here is to be against... The Entire World.

From just a few days ago in the Montreal Gazette:

https://montrealgazette.com/opinion/...the-real-world

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Aren't the other provinces a bit annoyed with that? I would be.

In Belgium, they have no such qualms with the Francophone minority. Most PMs are now from Flanders, and don't even bother to pretend speaking French anymore.

Some people do complain, but ultimately it's their own fault as Quebec alone due to demographics and the numbers of seats can't elect the Prime Minister of Canada against the will of the rest of the country.

In more than a few cases over the past 50 years, support for a Quebec-origin Prime Minister of Canada has been quite a bit higher in parts of Canada outside Quebec than within Quebec.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes, and angryphones in Quebec go to great lengths to hammer the point that to be against more English here is to be against... The Entire World.

From just a few days ago in the Montreal Gazette:

https://montrealgazette.com/opinion/...the-real-world

It's basically true at this point no? In small country EU at least they are shocked at the level of English in Quebec. Someone said 90% of Doctors speak English. I would dispute that at least at a sufficient level to practice medicine. You can get better service in English in most countries in the world than in Quebec. I can't think of another Metro that doesn't have English signs for example.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

It's basically true at this point no? In small country EU at least they are shocked at the level of English in Quebec. Someone said 90% of Doctors speak English. I would dispute that at least at a sufficient level to practice medicine. You can get better service in English in most countries in the world than in Quebec. I can't think of another Metro that doesn't have English signs for example.

I've travelled all over the world and I'd say Quebec is pretty good in terms of a native or second language speaker of English being able to navigate things and being able to communicate effectively.

It doesn't meet the wall-to-wall English expectations of many ROCers but that's not reasonable anyway, nor is it really for our own good as is often claimed.

BTW in the Barcelona Metro (just one example) most of the signs are in Catalan only. In Paris the announcements of the stops aren't bilingual in French and English. And Montreal's Métro has safety instructional signage in French and English.

Those people who are shocked how little English there is in Quebec must have missed stuff like the generously subsidized anglophone education system from kindergarten to PhD... among other things. Who else in the world has that for the minority?

[vanatox]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

It's basically true at this point no? In small country EU at least they are shocked at the level of English in Quebec. Someone said 90% of Doctors speak English. I would dispute that at least at a sufficient level to practice medicine. You can get better service in English in most countries in the world than in Quebec. I can't think of another Metro that doesn't have English signs for example.

It is very hard to take seriously someone that say stuff like that.. What are you, the small EU country representative?

You are a serious globetrotter with major health issues if you have ever tried every national/regional/provincial health care system available in the whole world.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

90 % of doctors in Québec can speak English, and by law people can demand medical services in English when available. What percentage of Francophones in Manitoba and Ontario can have medical services in French?

I can speak to this (as a physician).

In North America, we practice North American medicine to North American standards.

Virtually all the medical textbooks used in North American medical schools are written in English. These are the textbooks used (or at least referenced to) in all North American medical schools (even the francophone ones in Quebec).

After medical school, if you intend to specialize, then you enter a residency match. Most of the residency programs are in anglophone North America, and, if you are interested in obtaining the best possible graduate training, you are very likely going to have to go to a major teaching hospital in another province/state.

After residency, when in private practice, you still have to maintain 400 hours of CME during every five year cycle of practice (two weeks per year). Most of these hours are accumulated by attending major medical conferences. virtually all the major medical conferences are sponsored by major American medicals schools, held in American convention centres, and conducted in English. Attendees to these conferences come from everywhere in the world.

Is it any wonder that over 90% of graduates of francophone physicians in Quebec speak excellent English?

It is not a conspiracy. It is just a matter of fact.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by vanatox

It is very hard to take seriously someone that say stuff like that.. What are you, the small EU country representative?

You are a serious globetrotter with major health issue if you have ever tried every national/regional/provincial health care system available in the whole world.

And if we are going to play the foreign anecdote game (from small EU countries or elsewhere), in my experience a lot of people from foreign countries think Anglo-Quebecers are a bunch of boneheads - or worse - for not knowing and speaking French when they live in the middle of a predominantly and historically francophone place.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I can speak to this (as a physician).

In North America, we practice North American medicine to North American standards.

Virtually all the medical textbooks used in North American medical schools are written in English. These are the textbooks used (or at least referenced to) in all North American medical schools (even the francophone ones in Quebec).

After medical school, if you intend to specialize, then you enter a residency match. Most of the residency programs are in anglophone North America, and, if you are interested in obtaining the best possible graduate training, you are very likely going to have to go to a major teaching hospital in another province/state.

After residency, when in private practice, you still have to maintain 400 hours of CME during every five year cycle of practice (two weeks per year). Most of these hours are accumulated by attending major medical conferences. virtually all the major medical conferences are sponsored by major American medicals schools, held in American convention centres, and conducted in English. Attendees to these conferences come from everywhere in the world.

Is it any wonder that over 90% of graduates of francophone physicians in Quebec speak excellent English?

It is not a conspiracy. It is just a matter of fact.

No one disputes this. But regardless of the reason it's still a huge benefit for the anglophone community in Quebec.

And it would still exist even if they didn't have their own network of hospitals, which Quebec provides and funds.

[Acajack]

As this type of questioning continues to unfurl and gain steam across the western world, we'll probably see more and not less people abroad who wonder why the hell Anglo-Quebecers can't at least speak a little bit of French.

https://twitter.com/SuellaBraverman/...97219226374433

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

No one disputes this. But regardless of the reason it's still a huge benefit for the anglophone community in Quebec.

And it would still exist even if they didn't have their own network of hospitals, which Quebec provides and funds.

The only way to "level the playing field" would be for bilingual Quebec physicians to refuse providing service in English, since the chances of improving French services by unilingual anglophone physicians in the ROC is probably nil.

Is this what you are advocating? Should services in English to anglophone patients in Quebec be withdrawn?

Which is worse? An inability to provide appropriate linguistic services (ROC), or a refusal to provide appropriate linguistic services (Quebec)?

Which is more mean spirited.........

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I can speak to this (as a physician).

In North America, we practice North American medicine to North American standards.

Virtually all the medical textbooks used in North American medical schools are written in English. These are the textbooks used (or at least referenced to) in all North American medical schools (even the francophone ones in Quebec).

After medical school, if you intend to specialize, then you enter a residency match. Most of the residency programs are in anglophone North America, and, if you are interested in obtaining the best possible graduate training, you are very likely going to have to go to a major teaching hospital in another province/state.

After residency, when in private practice, you still have to maintain 400 hours of CME during every five year cycle of practice (two weeks per year). Most of these hours are accumulated by attending major medical conferences. virtually all the major medical conferences are sponsored by major American medicals schools, held in American convention centres, and conducted in English. Attendees to these conferences come from everywhere in the world.

Is it any wonder that over 90% of graduates of francophone physicians in Quebec speak excellent English?

It is not a conspiracy. It is just a matter of fact.

I am not saying it is a conspiracy, I am saying that Québec offers better English services than ROC offers French services. Whatever the reason to learn English, Québécois learn it way more than ROCers learn French. About 45-50 % of people in Québec are bilingual French-English, and still we are being accused of being closed to the world because we want to protect French. Wanting to live, consume and work in French doesn't mean we don't learn English nor offer services in English, it means we don't want to be impose English by a minority in Québec that would chose not to learn French, and by a majority outside Québec that don't seed the need for (nor the value of) French.

It is normal to speak English to a customer that wants it, or to a tourist. But it is not normal to be forced to speak English because your boss doesn't want to be bothered to learn it and is forcing everyone in the room to use their second language to accommodate him. It is also not normal to be forced to speak English in a store because the owner didn't bothered to hire someone that can speak French (often on purpose because the owner prefers to accommodate Anglophones that demand service in English than Francophones). It is also not normal for an immigrant not to learn French in Québec and demand that the local population adapts to him instead of adapting to the majority.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes, and angryphones in Quebec go to great lengths to hammer the point that to be against more English here is to be against... The Entire World.

From just a few days ago in the Montreal Gazette:

https://montrealgazette.com/opinion/...the-real-world

"Fog over the Channel, the Continent isolated".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

"Fog over the Channel, the Continent isolated".

Haha!