Highways in Canada

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Treplow

Thanks for finding/posting the info. Between the traffic lights and the massive construction detours at the Turcot interchange I think I'll be sticking to that 20-30-40 route from now on.

Once, on a Thursday afternoon in late August, on my way to Québec, I even detoured via 20-201-530-30-20. The traffic lights on 201 were annoying though. If traffic on the 40 weren’t bad, I’d have done 20-30-40-13-440-25-640-40 (or 20-30-40-13-640-40). I’ve always found 640 useful. I wish it were built across Ottawa River to connect with 40 though. Then I also wish 13 were already extended to connect with 50 and 50 twinned. The wish list goes on...

As in your case, I suppose you could have done 20-13-40-30-20.

[Gdoggy]

Originally Posted by Treplow

I drove back from Montreal to Toronto last weekend. Exited the island via A20 rather than my usual A40 route (dropped my sister and her boyfriend at the airport on the way) and was surprised to discover that the section of A20 through Ile-Perrot is still at grade and full of traffic

It's worth it just to stop at Smoke Meat Pete on the way back to Ontario

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Horus

Never heard the 427 referred to as Airport Expressway. I would have thought that would be the name for 409.

Only a short section between the 401 and Airport Road was ever called the Airport Expressway, before it was part of the 427. Back then what is now the 427 south of the 401 was part of Highway 27, and the Airport Expressway was a short expressway linked to the 401 just west of Hwy 27.

Airport Expressway was incorporated into the 427 when Hwy 27 was renumbered and the Expressway was extended north.

Speaking of Hwy 27, something I learned recently about the highway north of the 401 is that it may have been called the Etobicoke Parkway at one time. It appeared on maps in a 1985 TTC plan.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Once, on a Thursday afternoon in late August, on my way to Québec, I even detoured via 20-201-530-30-20. The traffic lights on 201 were annoying though. If traffic on the 40 weren’t bad, I’d have done 20-30-40-13-440-25-640-40 (or 20-30-40-13-640-40). I’ve always found 640 useful. I wish it were built across Ottawa River to connect with 40 though. Then I also wish 13 were already extended to connect with 50 and 50 twinned. The wish list goes on...

As in your case, I suppose you could have done 20-13-40-30-20.

What's odd is that coming into the Montreal area from the 401/Toronto, the signs marked "Montréal" clearly direct you away from the non-expressway segment of A-20 where the stoplights are, and lead you to A-30 (for a very short distance) then A-40 across the western island and then A-15 (Décarie) towards downtown.

But leaving downtown Montreal on the major highways, the signs marked "Toronto" lead you to A-20 all the way (and its non-expressway segment).

If you go up Décarie (A-15) and then take the A-40 west, it's all signed as "Ottawa-Gatineau", and it's only once off the island at Vaudreuil where "Toronto" appears on signs again at the junction with the A-30 that leads to A-20 and the 401.

Interestingly enough, going into Montreal from Toronto, Google Maps follows the signage: 20-30-40-15-720.

And leaving Montreal for Toronto it recommends the other route (again, the one that's on the signs): 720-20-401.

I've only rarely taken the A-20 through the Île-Perrot area, so I don't know if it's actually an easier route westbound as opposed to eastbound.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

What's odd is that coming into the Montreal area from the 401/Toronto, the signs marked "Montréal" clearly direct you away from the non-expressway segment of A-20 where the stoplights are, and lead you to A-30 (for a very short distance) then A-40 across the western island and then A-15 (Décarie) towards downtown.

But leaving downtown Montreal on the major highways, the signs marked "Toronto" lead you to A-20 all the way (and its non-expressway segment).

If you go up Décarie (A-15) and then take the A-40 west, it's all signed as "Ottawa-Gatineau", and it's only once off the island at Vaudreuil where "Toronto" appears on signs again at the junction with the A-30 that leads to A-20 and the 401.

Interestingly enough, going into Montreal from Toronto, Google Maps follows the signage: 20-30-40-15-720.

And leaving Montreal for Toronto it recommends the other route (again, the one that's on the signs): 720-20-401.

I've only rarely taken the A-20 through the Île-Perrot area, so I don't know if it's actually an easier route westbound as opposed to eastbound.

That's a more recent change then - I believe since the completed A-30 opened.

Prior to that, traffic was directed into Montreal via A-20.

Google street view from 2009:
Driving into Montreal on the A-20 in 2009

I recall driving this way going from Kingston to Montreal in 2012.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wave46

That's a more recent change then - I believe since the completed A-30 opened.

Prior to that, traffic was directed into Montreal via A-20.

Google street view from 2009:
Driving into Montreal on the A-20 in 2009

I recall driving this way going from Kingston to Montreal in 2012.

Are you sure that's not just a reassurance sign for people who missed the previous turn-off for Montreal?

As in:

"Vern, you idiot, you missed our exit!"

"No need to turn back dear, this road goes to Montreal too!"

The completion of the A-30 wouldn't have changed anything for this, as the very short section of that highway between the A-20 and the A-40, going in the direction away from the St. Lawrence River, has been there since the 1970s (at least). It used to be the A-540.

[MonctonRad]

The A-30 south shore bypass is a godsend for Maritimers.

Regarding the A-20 across Ile Perrot, I got suckered by this just last summer (I guess I just wasn't paying attention). I did a last minute left turn onto the 340 (Avenue St-Charles) to catch the A-40 eastbound (I was planning on taking the A-40 eastbound (for a change of pace) along the north shore of the St. Lawrence to QC in any event).

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Are you sure that's not just a reassurance sign for people who missed the previous turn-off for Montreal?

As in:

"Vern, you idiot, you missed our exit!"

"No need to turn back dear, this road goes to Montreal too!"

The completion of the A-30 wouldn't have changed anything for this, as the very short section of that highway between the A-20 and the A-40, going in the direction away from the St. Lawrence River, has been there since the 1970s (at least). It used to be the A-540.

Actually, you're correct.

This is a couple km farther back in 2009.

That's confusing though. There's a big overhead sign directing one to Montreal via the 540-40 and then the subsequent one directing traffic downtown via the 20.

The roundabout (30-40) way seems much more inconvenient if you're headed downtown.

[Dengler Avenue]

I just realized one thing: Since the bridge across A30 is privately tolled, does that mean the company that built it has every incentive to prevent A20 from being upgraded through Dorion and Île Parrot? For those that don’t wanna pay, they will have to take an extremely circuitous route via 30-40-13-640-40 and end up bypassing Montreal on the north shore.

I’ve done Route 201 before, and I won’t recommend it.

[Proof Sheet]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But leaving downtown Montreal on the major highways, the signs marked "Toronto" lead you to A-20 all the way (and its non-expressway segment).

I've only rarely taken the A-20 through the Île-Perrot area, so I don't know if it's actually an easier route westbound as opposed to eastbound.

Leaving downtown Montreal on the 720? westbound and when you see a sign for Toronto it seems so far away...

same with this sign !!!!

https://goo.gl/maps/qtgUh8d3Q8T2

The majority of people who have seen this sign have been travelling from Ottawa, eastern Ontario or the Rigaud/Hudson area and how many of them are realistically travelling to Toronto.

When you're on the 401 in Scarborough I don't think there are signs for Montreal.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I just realized one thing: Since the bridge across A30 is privately tolled, does that mean the company that built it has every incentive to prevent A20 from being upgraded through Dorion and Île Parrot? For those that don’t wanna pay, they will have to take an extremely circuitous route via 30-40-13-640-40 and end up bypassing Montreal on the north shore.

I’ve done Route 201 before, and I won’t recommend it.

I suppose it does. Then again, the 407 hasn't stopped upgrades from happening on the 401 parallel to it.

The pain of driving through Montreal is usually a good enough reason to avoid it - even if it costs a couple of dollars - especially on longer trips.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wave46

The pain of driving through Montreal is usually a good enough reason to avoid it, even if it costs a couple of dollars, especially on longer trips.

Yes, even if the A-20 were a full expressway all the way into Montreal from there, it would still be a much more congested route than the A-30 on the south shore.

Notably, it goes through the mess that is the Turcot interchange project as well as the Champlain bridge project. Obviously those will be done at some point but these will still be fairly congested areas to drive through.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Proof Sheet

same with this sign !!!!

https://goo.gl/maps/qtgUh8d3Q8T2

The majority of people who have seen this sign have been travelling from Ottawa, eastern Ontario or the Rigaud/Hudson area and how many of them are realistically travelling to Toronto.

.

This one, on the approach to Montreal going east (so going seemingly in the opposite way from Toronto) is a bit counter-intuitive and odd, but still informative IMO - which is what signs are supposed to be.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Proof Sheet

Leaving downtown Montreal on the 720? westbound and when you see a sign for Toronto it seems so far away...

(...)

When you're on the 401 in Scarborough I don't think there are signs for Montreal.

I actually think there should be signs for Montreal on the 401 in Toronto. It's actually a big gripe I have with MTO's signage practices.

These signs are supposed to show you the next big city the highway leads to, and where people who aren't familiar with the area are likely to be heading.

In downtown Montreal, going west, that's most likely to be Toronto. (The city destinations on highway signs are known as "control cities".)

Ontario has a weird way of determining control cities, and it's no doubt confusing to people who aren't familiar with the province or country's geography. Though thankfully we are now living in the age of the GPS.

When you leave Ottawa and are approaching the 416, nothing indicates to you that this is the road to Canada's largest city. What it says is 416 SOUTH TO 401. I've said before that the MTO seems to think that the 401 is so famous that Russian and Japanese tourists in rental cars (which may or may not have GPS) know intuitively that that's the road to Toronto.

And then when you get to the end of the 416, the signs for the 401 point either to Cornwall (EAST) or Kingston (WEST). Again, no mention of Toronto (nor of Montreal going east).

Within Toronto itself all of the 401 signs indicate either EAST or WEST, with no control cities at all. Again, it's as if they expect tourists to be experts in cardinal directions and Canadian geography.

So those signs pointing to Toronto in the Montreal area are fine. That's the way they should be. (There are also expressway signs in the Montreal area pointing to New York and Vermont.)

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Proof Sheet

Leaving downtown Montreal on the 720? westbound and when you see a sign for Toronto it seems so far away...

same with this sign !!!!

https://goo.gl/maps/qtgUh8d3Q8T2

The majority of people who have seen this sign have been travelling from Ottawa, eastern Ontario or the Rigaud/Hudson area and how many of them are realistically travelling to Toronto.

When you're on the 401 in Scarborough I don't think there are signs for Montreal.

There aren't. Ontario tends to list control cities within province and just the next nearest city. So, a sign in Scarborough heading eastbound on the 401 would likely list the control city as 'Kingston'.

I think the only exceptions might be after the 417 splits from Ottawa 174 and the 401 east of Cornwall. There Montreal is listed simply because there's really nothing after that noteworthy in Ontario.

It is probably very confusing if you're from out of the province/country. That, along with the changing highway numbers at provincial borders.

Edit: well Acajack did a better job of explaining it than I.

[Acajack]

Picture yourself at a multi-lane highway junction on the outskirts of Sydney, with traffic merging at 100 kmh from all directions. You want to go to Melbourne and you see a jumble of signs that say EAST WEST NORTH SOUTH and the only cities you see are Gosford and Woollongong. Without cheating by looking at a map and no prior knowledge of the area, would you know which way to go?

(And you understand English well - not all tourists do.)

[Dengler Avenue]

Now that you all brought it up, I just realized 401 West never says Detroit, but only Windsor.

Obviously we don’t want you to leave Ontario.

As for 417, it’s probably also because it was built specifically for people to go from Ottawa to Montreal (and vice versa). That highway’s special.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Picture yourself at a multi-lane highway junction on the outskirts of Sydney, with traffic merging at 100 kmh from all directions. You want to go to Melbourne and you see a jumble of signs that say EAST WEST NORTH SOUTH and the only cities you see are Gosford and Woollongong. Without cheating by looking at a map and no prior knowledge of the area, would you know which way to go?

(And you understand English well - not all tourists do.)

I know of some family friends that were out west in Alberta a couple of decades back. They were on Alberta Highway 1 in Calgary looking for the road to Edmonton. They must've drove over the Highway 2 overpass (the road to Edmonton) half a dozen times.

The problem: Highway 2 was signed for the metropolis of Red Deer, not Edmonton.

The US Interstate system is much better. An example: Interstate 10 in Phoenix lists the next western control city as Los Angeles, as opposed to some weird little place like Quartzsite, AZ.

The right way to do things IMO would be to list multiple control cities in order. A sign on Highway 401 in Scarborough would be have the cities of Kingston, Cornwall and Montreal listed in that order. A sign for Highway 2 north in Calgary would have Red Deer and Edmonton listed.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wave46

I know of some family friends that were out west in Alberta a couple of decades back. They were on Alberta Highway 1 in Calgary looking for the road to Edmonton. They must've drove over the Highway 2 overpass (the road to Edmonton) half a dozen times.

The problem: Highway 2 was signed for the metropolis of Red Deer, not Edmonton.

The US Interstate system is much better. An example: Interstate 10 in Phoenix lists the next western control city as Los Angeles, as opposed to some weird little place like Quartzsite, AZ.

The right way to do things IMO would be to list multiple control cities in order. A sign on Highway 401 in Scarborough would be have the cities of Kingston, Cornwall and Montreal listed in that order. A sign for Highway 2 north in Calgary would have Reed Deer and Edmonton listed.

Yeah, there is no reason at least two cities can't be on those signs.

On the 417 as you leave Ottawa going west you've actually got Kanata and Pembroke IIRC and going east you have Cornwall and Montreal.

But for other highways like the 416 (and the 401 in most of Toronto)... nothing.

[Acajack]

Toronto... no where to be seen

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.3451915,...43J0az8ME17UcngqFGxtA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656