LeBreton Flats 2.0 (RendezVous LeBreton) | Cancelled

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by TheGoods

All you need is two for competition especially when it is a sealed bid, I personally think that it will not change the outcome. The other item was Claridge which does the bait and switch, look at the Andaz building or what is currently at Lebreton Flats.

It not like they can peak at someone else bid and say, wow, look at that they are doing, we need to bet them, let's come up with something different.
If the process was open and had different steps with orals before choosing the winning bidder, then yes, I would say that would have an effect.

Both bids are dependent on the same partner - the Senators (I'm assuming, maybe devcore is proposing a KHL team). So Melnyk will go into all of the negotiations knowing it is him or scrapping the whole process, which puts the NCC and city in a weak negotiating position.

[bikegypsy]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

The problem is that the government isn't willing to commit to fund something nationally significant. A new Museum of Science and Technology would have been perfect and would come at precisely the right time. Without funding for projects like that, though, you're left with parks and monuments, which, frankly, Ottawa already has in spades to the point that we're left with options like Victims of Communism, which is laughable and pathetic.

Part of making a capital the entire nation can be proud of is making a city that the nation can be proud of, and there is more to building a city than museums and monuments.

Exactly! Cities must built infrastructures for its citizens first which in turn contributes to developing urban character. This is why certain capitals, such as Bruxelles, Paris and Rome, are so charming... They've built their brand by building for themselves, and not for all Belgians, French and Italians. This is why we love visiting these places: a strong sense of belonging goes a long way in developing charisma. The NCC has to stop trying to appeal to "all Canadians"; it's formidably annoying and reductive, and makes Ottawans feel disconnected from their city. Ridiculous things like slapping huge Canadian flags on the side of a building makes Ottawa look and feel watered down, temporary and utilitarian. There's a reason why Montreal is Canada's favourite city; it obtains universal appeal by being very personal.

[Norman Bates]

Originally Posted by bikegypsy

Exactly! Cities must built infrastructures for its citizens first which in turn contributes to developing urban character. This is why certain capitals, such as Bruxelles, Paris and Rome, are so charming... They've built their brand by building for themselves, and not for all Belgians, French and Italians. This is why we love visiting these places: a strong sense of belonging goes a long way in developing charisma. The NCC has to stop trying to appeal to "all Canadians"; it's formidably annoying and reductive, and makes Ottawans feel disconnected from their city. Ridiculous things like slapping huge Canadian flags on the side of a building makes Ottawa look and feel watered down, temporary and utilitarian. There's a reason why Montreal is Canada's favourite city; it obtains universal appeal by being very personal.

Well said. I've searched for years for the words to describe Ottawa to others. But you've found them for me: Ottawa looks and feels watered down, temporary and utilitarian.

[passwordisnt123]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

[B]With LeBreton, the choice shouldn't be between two similar plans

It’s easy to get excited about the idea of new rink downtown, one that we could reach by using rail transit, just like people in big cities do. It’s generous to describe LeBreton as being part of downtown, though. The flats are on the edge of a fairly sterile downtown business district. The real restaurant and bar action, the stuff that should surround an arena, is all over on Elgin or in the Market.

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/col...-similar-plans

Jeez. You know, he's right. Downtown is kinda sterile. If only there was some way to help address that problem. Perhaps with some kind of a sporting or entertainment venue somewhere downtown? And maybe if they could place it near two major LRT stations and surround it with shops and restaurants and residential density to make it lively after hours, pedestrian friendly and economically viable?

It's a real shame there's not some parcel of land somewhere that fits that description.

I do have just one question for all the people (like Ottawa—Centre MP McKenney and Randall Denley) harping endlessly on how important it is for this piece of land to serve some nationally-significant purpose for "all Canadians": How does making Ottawa into a sterile, insipid mausoleum chock-a-block full of ugly half-assed monuments nobody ever visits serve the national interest? It's like they want Ottawa to be a Canadian version of a potemkin village instead of, you know, some sort of a city with things to do and see and, dare I say, enjoy.

[bikegypsy]

Originally Posted by Norman Bates

Well said. I've searched for years for the words to describe Ottawa to others. But you've found them for me: Ottawa looks and feels watered down, temporary and utilitarian.

It can feel and look that way at times, but it doesn't mean that it is. I would never describe Ottawa as being "watered down, temporary and utilitarian" as it is by far the best place I've lived; and I've lived in several different cities (including Paris, SF and Montreal) and countries. If only the NCC was more interested in Ottawans and Gatinois than visitors to the city; I will celebrate the day this city is freed from its suffocating shackles.

[acottawa]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...lnyk-1.3371978

Sens won't play in devcore arena, so unless they're going to spend hundreds of millions on an arena to host the ice capades and monster truck rallies then there is only one viable proposal.

[Kitchissippi]

Maybe Devcore can try for an NBA franchise — after all there's a sport invented by a Canadian, a local lad from Almonte no less

[kwoldtimer]

My money is on both proposals being rejected.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by acottawa

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...lnyk-1.3371978

Sens won't play in devcore arena, so unless they're going to spend hundreds of millions on an arena to host the ice capades and monster truck rallies then there is only one viable proposal.

I think a comment like that should automatically disqualify any bidder which includes the Senators Sports and Entertainment Group. It was obviously made to try to influence the outcome of the selection. It is a blatant disregard for the silence that all bidders were supposed to keep. Making a public statement in the media that only their bid will work (because they are prepared to sabotage the other bid) is absolute grounds for disqualifying that bid. (That said, it is information that the NCC should definitely have so that they can proceed accordingly. It just should have been done in private, according to the competition requirements.)

Then if it is true that the Senators would never play in a Devcore arena, then, if Devcore is planning an NHL arena, their bid should be rejected as it would not be financially feasible.

Thus, we should be starting all over again with fresh ideas – that includes no arena since having the Senators on a bidding team would disqualify it.

[eemy]

I think Melnyk's statement is in bad taste, but at the same time, it seems awfully presumptuous for Devcore to assume that the Sens would be a tenant in their development without first approaching them.

[HighwayStar]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

... It is a blatant disregard for the silence that all bidders were supposed to keep...

What about the silence the NCC was "supposed" to keep. Why is this 2 arena proposal public when all bids are sealed?

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Thus, we should be starting all over again with fresh ideas – that includes no arena since having the Senators on a bidding team would disqualify it.

Maybe it time for a fresh idea about turning Ottawa lands over to Ottawa and abolishing the NCC....

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

What about the silence the NCC was "supposed" to keep. Why is this 2 arena proposal public when all bids are sealed?

Maybe it time for a fresh idea about turning Ottawa lands over to Ottawa and abolishing the NCC....

The NCC has been silent and has not said anything about the contents of the proposals, other than announced the names of the two bidders and those who dropped out. It's the bidders and the people associated with them who can't keep their mouths shut.

[danishh]

My take has been that the inclusion of an arena by devcore was a cynical ploy to pacify sens fans during the consultations phase, and the arena would have been dropped should they not be able to come to a lease agreement with the sens. I still see a possible scenario where they win the bid and melnyk capitulates, but devcore fired the first shot by leaking the arena inclusion, and melnyk is firing back now to try to get the upper hand back during the consultations. I'm sure the NCC isn't happy but I doubt they're going to do anything about it at this point

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by danishh

My take has been that the inclusion of an arena by devcore was a cynical ploy to pacify sens fans during the consultations phase, and the arena would have been dropped should they not be able to come to a lease agreement with the sens. I still see a possible scenario where they win the bid and melnyk capitulates, but devcore fired the first shot by leaking the arena inclusion, and melnyk is firing back now to try to get the upper hand back during the consultations. I'm sure the NCC isn't happy but I doubt they're going to do anything about it at this point

Interesting theory. But how would the NCC allow them to drop the arena? The basic deal is the developer gets some prime land and in return builds something various levels of government want but aren't willing to pay for, at least transparently. If you drop the nationally significant... you can't get to keep the land.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Norman Bates

Well said. I've searched for years for the words to describe Ottawa to others. But you've found them for me: Ottawa looks and feels watered down, temporary and utilitarian.

I thought the same as well.

It's like it's too comfortable to aspire to anything grand.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I thought the same as well.

It's like it's too comfortable to aspire to anything grand.

What is a grand city with a metro population of a million? There is no hinterland, no empire, very little private sector. Grand costs money.

The nice parts of Rome were built thousands of years ago when it ruled the known world or hundreds of years ago when the church was collecting money from all over the world. Paris and London were capitals of large empires. Ottawa is a lot better than Canberra.

[danishh]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Interesting theory. But how would the NCC allow them to drop the arena? The basic deal is the developer gets some prime land and in return builds something various levels of government want but aren't willing to pay for, at least transparently. If you drop the nationally significant... you can't get to keep the land.

If they win the bid and schedule construction such that the arena isn't first, they can simply at a later date say melnyk is not agreeing to a lease (on their terms) so there's no point in building it. What is the NCC going to do, force them to build an arena with no anchor tenant? Presumably there'd be some sort of renegotiation and the arena would be replaced with something else, perhaps a smaller scale arena/concert space.

[daud]

Originally Posted by acottawa

What is a grand city with a metro population of a million? There is no hinterland, no empire, very little private sector. Grand costs money.

The nice parts of Rome were built thousands of years ago when it ruled the known world or hundreds of years ago when the church was collecting money from all over the world. Paris and London were capitals of large empires. Ottawa is a lot better than Canberra.

I find the great capitals are often a nations "first city". That city with the banking sector, entertainment sector, the economic hub, the private sector employment etc... Take a look: First city capitals: Paris, London, Madrid, Rome, Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Helsinki, Lisbon, Athens, Buenos Aires, Santiago, Mexico City, Delhi, Moscow, Beijing, Tokyo, Seoul etc... all the economic engines of those countries.

Now take a look at Capital cities that are, lets call them second cities or tier 2 cities: Brasilia, Canberra, Ottawa, Ankara, Wellington (NZ) Islamabad, etc...

You need scale to really make a place exciting. Its not the sole variable but its one of them. There are first city capitals that are horrible and second city capitals that are great (Washington) but by and large, the great capitals of the world are often that country's largest cities.

In the case of Ottawa, we have a decent size, and we are a very nice, clean capital, but Canada doesn't really have the 300 million tax payers to create a Washington, so we've actually done quite well with what we have. Its a great place to live, but Grand, it is not.

We have to be realistic with what we are dealing with (tier 2 city) and who we are soliciting (private sector) in the Lebreton RFP, we are lucky we've got a group like Trinity and Melnyk interested in this plot of land to develop. Councillor McKenney isn't really working with the reality of the situation.

[Norman Bates]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

My money is on both proposals being rejected.

Ladies and gentlemen: We have a winner!

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I thought the same as well.

It's like it's too comfortable to aspire to anything grand.

Forget about Ottawa; Canada has exactly zero cities that would fit or even approximate the description of grand. Others mentioned in ensuing posts why that's the case; the age and history and population of this country precludes it.

...

Regarding Melnyk's comments, the information he commented on is in the public domain, and not by his doing. To suggest that he did something wrong by commenting on public information (especially if during a Q&A with reporters asking him about it) is totally unfair.