Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[Acajack]

OK there is a bit of Habs lore there...

https://www.tripadvisor.ca/Attractio...&category=-160

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Acajack

OK there is a bit of Habs lore there...

https://www.tripadvisor.ca/Attractio...&category=-160

Yeah, on the inside, the Forum looks like a shrine to the Montreal Canadians. I don't necessarily have an issue with what goes on inside and how they implemented it. The problem is really with the outside of the building.

For what it's worth, I'd love this type of entertainment venue in Ottawa, either LeBreton Flats or Place de Ville. Like an all in one entertainment fun-house. Just don't want them to turn the Aberdeen Pavilion into a tacky box (or basic b*** box) to do so, you know.

[Acajack]

The Habs lore seemed like an afterthought or an obligation when I was there but maybe I didn't give it enough of a chance.

There was almost no one else there who was paying attention to it IIRC.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The Habs lore seemed like an afterthought or an obligation when I was there but maybe I didn't give it enough of a chance.

There was almost no one else there who was paying attention to it IIRC.

Based on the pictures, certainly seems like a high level of tackiness to it, which may or may not be a good thing. Haven't been myself, so I'll reserve my judgement.

That said, I'm assuming most people who go there have been before. Maybe the importance of the place in hockey history is lost on the younger generation. Who knows if the people who frequent the place even know what it was. They may just think the owners are big fans of the Canadians. I'm sure most people from outside of town have no idea the place is still around (or where it was to begin with).

[esquire]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Based on the pictures, certainly seems like a high level of tackiness to it, which may or may not be a good thing. Haven't been myself, so I'll reserve my judgement.

That said, I'm assuming most people who go there have been before. Maybe the importance of the place in hockey history is lost on the younger generation. Who knows if the people who frequent the place even know what it was. They may just think the owners are big fans of the Canadians. I'm sure most people from outside of town have no idea the place is still around (or where it was to begin with).

It's been long enough that I wouldn't expect many people under 30 who aren't into the Habs or urbanists with an interest in Montreal history to know what that building is. Unlike MLG, the remodeled Forum is just a big box that isn't really distinctive.

[craner]

Originally Posted by esquire

Agreed, MLG still at least has 100% of its historic character on the outside. The inside has changed but it's still a good use that generates traffic and keeps the streets lively.

The Forum doesn't have any of that. Whatever midcentury dignity it had after the 1968 renovations was lost when it got nineties-fied once the Habs moved out. I mean, this is just awful:

Yeesh - that’s hideous, poor Forum.

FWIW I always liked the 1970s era Forum with the crossed hockey stick escalators. I prefer it to the pre-renovation building which is kind of ugly IMO.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by craner

Yeesh - that’s hideous, poor Forum.

FWIW I always liked the 1970s era Forum with the crossed hockey stick escalators. I prefer it to the pre-renovation building which is kind of ugly IMO.

That was a nice touch. Visible from outside too.

Forum mockup by Kevin Chan, on Flickr

https://puckstruck.com/2021/03/11/farewell-the-forum/


https://twitter.com/liams_hockey/sta...09092315623425

[esquire]

The Forum looked extremely modern after the 1968 renovation. There is nothing that gave away the fact that there was an old building underneath. Why did the owners go to the trouble of the renovation? Was it part of a building expansion?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

The Forum looked extremely modern after the 1968 renovation. There is nothing that gave away the fact that there was an old building underneath. Why did the owners go to the trouble of the renovation? Was it part of a building expansion?

Yeah, they added 3000 seats, removed columns that obstructed views, etc.

Though you still couldn't see the scoreboard above centre ice from the top sections. So if you were in the "blues" (up top), you had mini scoreboards and screens hanging from the ceiling in front of you.

I have to admit after watching games all my childhood on TV, I felt a chill up my spine coming out of the Atwater métro for my first game and seeing those crossed hockey sticks for the first time on Ste-Catherine.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by savevp

ML Gardens wilted away? Come now.


Gardens is probably the best retrofit of an old arena one could ask for. Still hosting hockey, stunning exterior restoration, and the interior chock full of artifacts. Hard to realistically ask for better.

It's not bad but by no means is it the original building. It's heavily modified, as others have posted in this thread. It's fine, and i'm glad the building is still standing and mostly used for its original intent, but I actually agree with a lot of what 2004 Melnyk said when he wanted to maintain it as a 10K concert venue with the ability to house hockey games when needed. I like to imagine the Leafs would play special events there (like the yearly Hall of Fame game) with a few other random events here and there to honour the legacy of the sport in the city.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

That said, feels like Toronto does need another 15k-20k venue.

Would be nice, but between the smattering of smaller venues in Oshawa/Brampton/Markham/Mississauga, the Coliseum at Exhibition, and Hamilton's arena i'm not sure how much need there is at this time.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by esquire

I was thinking of venues that carried on at least nominally in their original function... MLG ceased being a functioning large-scale arena after the then-ACC opened, although you're right, there is still that small TMU arena in there but it's not the same as original MLG. Same situation with the Forum.

Pacific Coliseum is the only ex-NHL arena in Canada I can think of that still carries on largely unchanged. It's interesting how Vancouver is the only place in the country where that happened. Especially given that Pacific Coliseum doesn't even have a full time sports tenant ever since the Giants decamped to Langley.

That's not exactly true. The civic centre in Ottawa is still in use, I understand it wasn't exactly an NHL specific arena in its opening but it did host the Sens and it was the cities primary arena before CTC and serves the same purpose today, So i feel like it falls into the same category

Winnipeg arena, rexall and the pepsi coliseum all failed to fill a gap in those perspective cities due to the lower population. With Theatres like burt cummings in Winnipeg and Shaw conference centre in Edmonton. Theirs no demand for a secondary venue like Vancouver (if it even exists). Although I'm almost sure if katz didn't convince the city to sign a non compete with Rexall, Northlands would still be running the building. Pacific is still viable event centre much like Rexall. It was a low cost turn key building to host events. Vancouver is big and busy enough to have x2 20,000 seat buildings compete. MLG and the forum were both long past their time as event centres they weren't even close to as modern as pacific. And on land too valuable to continue as marginally profitable event venues that needed millions in upgrades when they had shiny new arenas down the road. To be honest though i'm surprised pacific col is still standing after the WHL left town. I wonder if Vancouver has future olympic asperations that keep the building viable?

Speaking of supply and demand of arenas. I was reading about the Sh1tshow in LA. The clippers new intuit dome is a 4 minute drive from kia forum. The owner of the clippers actually had to buy the forum for 400M in order to build the new arena to avoid a lawsuit so he himself will have x2 20,000 seat arenas (combined 1.6 billion) within a city block of each other. I guess this is why we tear down the relics.

[Oilkountry]

Originally Posted by esquire

The Forum looked extremely modern after the 1968 renovation. There is nothing that gave away the fact that there was an old building underneath. Why did the owners go to the trouble of the renovation? Was it part of a building expansion?

Couldnt agree more. The forum in its original state was worth saving the facade
but not after the renos it honestly looked like a government building or a 1998 the bay retail store. The future shop reno as tacky as it is was kind of an upgrade as much as i hate to say it...and i do hate saying it.

[J.OT13]

The Forum was an odd looking building even before the 1968 reno, tbh. I agree, it's second half life as the Canadian's home arena, it looked like the eras department stores or a superplex cinema, which is ironic considering that was its ultimate fate.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Oilkountry

That's not exactly true. The civic centre in Ottawa is still in use, I understand it wasn't exactly an NHL specific arena in its opening but it did host the Sens and it was the cities primary arena before CTC and serves the same purpose today, So i feel like it falls into the same category

That's fair, although OCC was only a temporary home to the NHL. The Sens were just a blip in the building's long history... I wouldn't consider it to be quite in the same category as Pacific Coliseum.

Was there any pressure in Ottawa to demolish the OCC when the Palladium was built? I could imagine that the team's owners would have been anxious to eliminate the competition as Katz did. But obviously it was a more complicated proposition given that the OCC is joined at the hip to the city's football stadium (i.e. can't demolish one without demolishing half of the other). I also wonder if the smaller size (under 10,000 seats) and location (central, as opposed to the distant Palladium) also helped keep the OCC alive.

Either way, I think Ottawa has probably been better off having both venues.

[J.OT13]

I don't believe there was any consideration or pressure to shut-down or demolish the Civic Centre. The City was in no way involved in the new franchise, other than renting them the arena temporarily, or the construction of the Palladium/Corel Centre, which was at the time built outside of Ottawa (in Kanata). That said, the Mayor of Ottawa at the time was named President of the Club in December 1990 and resigned a month later to work full-time in his Sens position.

Worth noting that the big move to Kanata was part of a shopping, hotel and entertainment complex and a huge suburban development that would have propped up the team. Locals (what locals?) and the Province opposed the development. The OMB finally gave Terrace Developments/Bruce Firestone (owner of the Sens at the time) the right to build, but only on a fifth of the developable area, with a smaller arena and downloaded the cost of the highway interchange to the owner. This "compromise" is what ultimately pushed out the original owner, who was replaced by Rod Bryden, who ultimately lost the team. Melnyk ended up buying the team from Bryden's creditors.

Here was the original concept plan. Note the early arena design called for a more traditional rectangular structure, similar to TD Garden in Boston.


https://stittsvillecentral.ca/sens-m...-says-planner/








http://www.bonksmullet.com/2013/08/s...palladium.html

[JHikka]

Surprised nobody has mentioned (for esquire's intrigue!) that the OHL Hamilton Bulldogs are leaving FirstOntario Centre due to renovations and will land in Brantford in the fall.

FirstOntario in Hamilton:



(the article makes a point of highlighting the prominence of the Toronto Rock banners as opposed to the Bulldogs)

And the rink they'll be playing out of in Brantford for three seasons:


https://www.thespec.com/sports/bulld...-hamilton.html

The Bulldogs have no lease in Hamilton for the future and are not guaranteed to be returning to the market once FirstOntario has been reno'd.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Surprised nobody has mentioned (for esquire's intrigue!) that the OHL Hamilton Bulldogs are leaving FirstOntario Centre due to renovations and will land in Brantford in the fall.

I did actually see mention of that on social media... along with some suggestions that, as you mentioned, the Bulldogs may be out of Hamilton for good.

What I'm not clear on is why would the Bulldogs leave Hamilton for good, as some are suggesting? Especially considering they will have a renovated arena with more of those irresistible Revenue Generating Opportunities™ throughout, which is something the rink in Brantford could never hope to match.

I get that it's awkward to skip town for a few years (is there seriously nowhere else they could play in or around Hamilton?!), but it's hard to believe they would vacate Hamilton altogether. You would think some other team, whether OHL, AHL or even ECHL, would swoop in pretty quickly. It's too lucrative of a market to leave untapped.

Edit: I read the article and the more I think about it, the more it looks like Andlauer is using Brantford as leverage in his negotiations with Hamilton, which doesn't appear to be treating him too well. That's not to say that he wouldn't move the team to Brantford, but I get the impression that would be a plan B, if he can't work out a satisfactory deal in Hamilton.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

What I'm not clear on is why would the Bulldogs leave Hamilton for good, as some are suggesting? Especially considering they will have a renovated arena with more of those irresistible Revenue Generating Opportunities™ throughout, which is something the rink in Brantford could never hope to match.

Someone from Hamilton or someone more read can correct me but my understanding is that there's still a lot of sourness over how the FirstOntario renovations came about and how the City didn't bend over backwards to build a new arena for Andlauer.

Originally Posted by esquire

I get that it's awkward to skip town for a few years (is there seriously nowhere else they could play in or around Hamilton?!),

Not really. Dave Andreychuk/Mountain Arena was suggested but the renos required to bring it up to par would have been excessive, IIRC. The rumour for the longest time was that they would end up in St. Catharines and arena-share with Niagara.

Originally Posted by esquire

but it's hard to believe they would vacate Hamilton altogether. You would think some other team, whether OHL, AHL or even ECHL, would swoop in pretty quickly. It's too lucrative of a market to leave untapped.

For an OHL market I think Hamilton underperforms a bit relative to its peers and size. There's a lot of competition in the market, though, and so it's understandable if the team doesn't have as much traction as they otherwise should. For the OHL a lot of it is less-so about revenues or finances as much as it is logistics wrt player availability, schooling options, billeting options, and things like that which would make Hamilton far more appealing than a place like Brantford.

I haven't seen any mention of it yet but i'm curious to see where the Toronto Rock end up. They only just recently landed in Hamilton. London might be an interesting landing spot for them, but i'm only throwing darts at a map. The Bulldogs did look at CAA in Brampton, where the Women's Worlds will be in a few weeks, before deciding on Brantford.

Originally Posted by esquire

Edit: I read the article and the more I think about it, the more it looks like Andlauer is using Brantford as leverage in his negotiations with Hamilton, which doesn't appear to be treating him too well. That's not to say that he wouldn't move the team to Brantford, but I get the impression that would be a plan B, if he can't work out a satisfactory deal in Hamilton.

Yes, more or less. But the next question is: if not Hamilton then where? Brantford doesn't seem like a reasonable long-term plan.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Not really. Dave Andreychuk/Mountain Arena was suggested but the renos required to bring it up to par would have been excessive, IIRC. The rumour for the longest time was that they would end up in St. Catharines and arena-share with Niagara.

The Dave Andreychuk Arena looks better than what have here in Winnipeg for the WHL! I find it hard to believe that it wouldn't work for a couple years while the FirstOntario Centre is off line, if only to maintain that continuity in Hamilton. Sink a million bucks into a new scoreboard, improved lighting, maybe a gussied up club seating area, and off you go.

For an OHL market I think Hamilton underperforms a bit relative to its peers and size. There's a lot of competition in the market, though, and so it's understandable if the team doesn't have as much traction as they otherwise should. For the OHL a lot of it is less-so about revenues or finances as much as it is logistics wrt player availability, schooling options, billeting options, and things like that which would make Hamilton far more appealing than a place like Brantford.

Hamilton is a big and busy market, and frankly, the churn of teams and leagues over the years probably hasn't done much to develop a steady fanbase. That's why if I'm the OHL, it's a priority for me to maintain a presence there and not let it slip away to another league. Moving the Bulldogs out of Hamilton might be good for Andlauer, but definitely bad for the league.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Someone from Hamilton or someone more read can correct me but my understanding is that there's still a lot of sourness over how the FirstOntario renovations came about and how the City didn't bend over backwards to build a new arena for Andlauer.

...

I haven't seen any mention of it yet but i'm curious to see where the Toronto Rock end up. They only just recently landed in Hamilton. London might be an interesting landing spot for them, but i'm only throwing darts at a map.

That's basically it. And the private sector operators haven't been communicative with the tenants regarding the renovation plans, according to the teams.

Andlauer wanted to build a 5,000 seat arena in suburban Hamilton, attached to a big mall. The mall's owners were up for it. The city wasn't interested (and I don't blame them! the mall is redeveloping anyway, but plunking a mid-size arena in the midst of it would be poor planning and create a local competing facility)

The group renovating the downtown arena may have other plans, or maybe they know that the market is just too big for teams to abandon it, and in a few years' time someone will be interested in playing here instead.

As for the Rock, I'm not sure how much of a foothold they've established. Keeping the "Toronto" branding sure didn't endear them to many people, but I believe that was planned to change.