Confederation Line West LRT Extension (Stage 2) [Tunney's to Baseline/Moodie] | U/C

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It is interesting that these comments are being made by the head of the airport authority while taxpayers are paying the $155M capital cost and a projected $4M per year operating loss. Wouldn't this money have been better spent on double tracking the line between Bayview and South Keys? Then, we would be in a better position to service the airport properly later. Haven't we got our priorities backwards? I have said for years, that extension of the Trillium Line will actually prevent proper double tracking in the future once reality sets in about another protracted shutdown required to complete double tracking.

I don't think $155M would have paid for double tracking the line but it could have at least double tracked good portions of it. Maybe it could have double tracked the Dows tunnel, the Rideau bridge, and replaced a few of the many overpasses between the Rideau bridge and Greenboro.

Thanks to the decision to put the new hospital at Carling station, double tracking the Trillium line's core carries an additional urgency. Ottawans should fight like crazy to make sure it's put on the agenda as soon as possible. Certainly before the Kanata or Barrhaven extensions.

[eltodesukane]

Why a spur to the airport?
Why not have the line go through the airport, without the need for a dead-end spur?

[zzptichka]

Last time double-tracking was brought up this was their response:

Modelling undertaken as part of the 2013 TMP update found that 2031 travel demand can be met using a single-track line with passing sidings. A fully double-tracked line is not considered cost-effective at this time.

http://ottawa.ca/en/residents/transp.../trillium-line

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by eltodesukane

Why a spur to the airport?
Why not have the line go through the airport, without the need for a dead-end spur?

The cost of tunneling through the airport property would be enormous and would place the line too far west to serve the entire south community well. A spur would cause no problems if the trunk line was properly double tracked.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Last time double-tracking was brought up this was their response:


http://ottawa.ca/en/residents/transp.../trillium-line

Typical 'expert' opinion. We are already trying to run too many trains on a single track line and it cannot provide optimal service levels if it is to provide trunk line service. We need to learn a lesson from the last failed service expansion. We spent a ton of money, doubled our operating expenses for minimal service and capacity expansion. The experts have already proven that they don't have any common sense.

We are seeing that the 'experts' are also reconsidering their last proposal to run Bowesville and Airport trains in tandem leaving and arriving from South Keys. I have no knowledge of rail operations but even I could see that this was not going to be practical. And now we see that they plan on fully separating the airport shuttle from through trains. Ah, the light finally goes on.

Beyond all of this, what happens when we do hit the wall? How do we move forward? It all points to a massive shutdown, like every other 'improvement' has required.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Sure, "Take a train from the airport and transfer where you need to"
Tons of airports have some sort of Airtrain link between terminals, so that's another train for you.
As a tourist, if I see a train at the airport I will always take it, and number of transfers is the last thing I worry about. Bus? Don't think so.

More like

1. Get your luggage and take the elevator upstairs.
2. Cross the bridge to the parking garage.
3. Get on another elevator to the train station.
4. Take the train for two stops.
5. Get off the train at Walmart. Wait on the same platform for another train.
6. Make super sure you get on a train marked "Bayview" and not the train market "Bowesville"
7. Take the next train for 8 or 9 stops. Don't be alarmed the train keeps stopping to wait for another one. Canadians can't afford two tracks.
8. Get off in the middle of an empty field. Look for an elevator to take you to another platform.
9. Follow the signs marked "Trim"
10. Take the tram for 3 stops. You are now downtown congratulations.

As opposed to the bus instructions.

1. Exit the door where you just picked up your luggage.
2. You will see a bus on your right. Board it, it will take you downtown.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by acottawa

More like

1. Get your luggage and take the elevator upstairs.
2. Cross the bridge to the parking garage.
3. Get on another elevator to the train station.
4. Take the train for two stops.
5. Get off the train at Walmart. Wait on the same platform for another train.
6. Make super sure you get on a train marked "Bayview" and not the train market "Bowesville"
7. Take the next train for 8 or 9 stops. Don't be alarmed the train keeps stopping to wait for another one. Canadians can't afford two tracks.
8. Get off in the middle of an empty field. Look for an elevator to take you to another platform.
9. Follow the signs marked "Trim"
10. Take the tram for 3 stops. You are now downtown congratulations.

As opposed to the bus instructions.

1. Exit the door where you just picked up your luggage.
2. You will see a bus on your right. Board it, it will take you downtown.

To nitpick, those instructions aren't quite apples to apples (for example, the bus instructions are simplified by leaving out where to get off) but yeah, good summary.

Airport spur should be taken off the table.

[Mikeed]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I am starting to wonder if our south end councillors cannot talk. A wimper from Orleans, build an extension to far reaches of Cumberland. A wimper from Kanata, get working on it.

I have to say it's a bit more then that. Fairly regularly I've been making transfers on the flats during the morning rush hour and it is eye opening to see the transit usage for Kanata North and the tech industry in the area. Take on DND and an entire swath of land that is home to many Federal agencies. CSA for example.

I don't think it's the lack of the whimper from the South, I think it is the reality that Orleans and Kanata have more *drivers* of economic, social and institutional activities and this make a better case for investments then the South areas currently.

The South is getting a billion dollar train system, not a relatively minor reformating of a right of way already being grade-separated

[Mikeed]

Dead ending the South rail rapid transit line at the Airport would be a HUGE mistake that would be for the relativity vane logic that we need a direct Airport > Downtown rail line to be "big league"

We need rapid transit to the southern communities. Not a billion dollar investment in a dead end at a relativity minor institution. Building a branch line makes sense. Trying to design rapid transit to capture the market of CEOs and First Class passengers getting whisked away to the terminal without transfers is NUTS!

For most people, all that really matters is you can link points A>B fast, if you can accomplish that with transfers- ok, if you can accomplish that without, great. But designing to the market of competing with taxis to the airport is dumb. We have to look at the bigger picture. If you think NYC or other large metropolis' you can sometimes zip across the network making a lot of transfers but it's FAST. A branch line will serve the people who hae packed light enough to take transit to the airport. The level of transfers don't matter to this group. If you've packed more then this you'd take a taxi! There is not group large enough who is packed in such away they could do a direct train route but being asked to transfer to a stump line with low headways is too much.

Don't design transit based on slideshow bullet points! Direct Downtown to Aiport rail link - Check
Design for real human needs

[Mikeed]

The reason why the Moodie drive extension makes sense-
1. The uptick in funding from higher government partners,
2. The experience in the first phase spending $30 million on BRT diversions and temporary transfer stations.

As the LRT extension will largely follow the BRT alignment and the
BRT has been designed for eventual conversion to LRT, much of the BRT infrastructure can be
repurposed for the LRT extension with the exception of Moodie Station, which is not located or
configured for an LRT alignment/station. A bus terminal at Moodie Station would require 8 bus
bays and 14 layby spaces to accommodate the anticipated 2031 feeder bus network including in
the most up to date ridership forecasts for 2031 that include the Stage 2 infrastructure.

Moodie offers the ability to build a better transfer facility since affordability in extending the Confederation Line into the heart of Kanata I think will push this project back decades, esp. since long term upgrading the Trillium Line/South Rail to Confederation Line specs, the Baseline Transitway, the Carling LRT ect. will make better cases for investments.

Bayview Station will be better served as a local hub and not a BRT/LRT transfer station, as we can design that to the specifics of that job.

1.4 Bayshore Station Cost Avoidance/Property Considerations/Development Potential
With LRT services terminating at Bayshore Station, the existing Bayshore Station bus terminal
must be expanded to provide 12 bus bays and 24 bus lay-by spaces. The size of the Bayshore
Station bus terminal required if Bayshore is the terminus is larger than the bus terminal included
in the Confederation West EA recently approved. An EA amendment to expand the Bayshore
Station bus terminal is currently underway and one of the principal impacts of the expanded bus
terminal is the need to purchase additional property to the west of the existing bus terminal. The
cost to construct the expanded bus terminal and purchase the additional property required can
be avoided by extending the LRT to Moodie Station as part of Stage 2. The TOD potential of
these lands can be realized more quickly than would be the case if the line terminates at
Bayshore Station as an interim stage. Specifically, with the LRT extension to Moodie Station as
part of Stage 2, the existing bus terminal at Bayshore Station on City-owned lands will be
sufficient for bus operations.

[Mikeed]

DNDHQ

.The LRT extensions will allow the provision of a short-distance shuttle bus service from Moodie Station to the DND complex compared to a short shuttle to the BRT station at Corkstown and a transfer at the LRT terminal station at Bayshore (or a 3 kilometer bus ride to Bayshore to avoid the BRT transfer at Corkstown).

A shuttle I'm sure the city would like DND/OCTranspo partner on with DND picking up some of the cost. Or at least it offers the opportunity for direct high-level service to DNDHQ. Which will likely be a very high driver of transit usage in the coming decades. Especially as further consolidation across Canada happens inside the CF, and DNDHQ expands to hold more of the core apparatus of the CF and other National Security agencies. And this will happen, as the Canadian Forces have been consolidating since basically the White Paper on Defence in the 60s that reformed the CF into Canada's sovereign & modern military. The Nortel lands allow new buildings and the rather temporary wings to be expanded. There is already plans on rebuilding I believe the main office of the Nortel campus to house the modern 21st century command and operation rooms for the CF and the offices of the chief of staff(s)- the brass.

With calls for the establishment of a foreign intelligence agency in light of the Donald fucking with the Five Eyes core institutions, the Nortel campus makes for a compelling home to any future Foreign intelligence agency. Esp as we may not want all our intelligence agencies in the same physical location (CSIS - domestic - CSE - electronic)
As the military and any foreign intel agency are ultimately mandated towards outward threats and NOT concerned with domestic actors. (ideally)

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Mikeed

Dead ending the South rail rapid transit line at the Airport would be a HUGE mistake that would be for the relativity vane logic that we need a direct Airport > Downtown rail line to be "big league"

We need rapid transit to the southern communities. Not a billion dollar investment in a dead end at a relativity minor institution. Building a branch line makes sense. Trying to design rapid transit to capture the market of CEOs and First Class passengers getting whisked away to the terminal without transfers is NUTS!

For most people, all that really matters is you can link points A>B fast, if you can accomplish that with transfers- ok, if you can accomplish that without, great. But designing to the market of competing with taxis to the airport is dumb. We have to look at the bigger picture. If you think NYC or other large metropolis' you can sometimes zip across the network making a lot of transfers but it's FAST. A branch line will serve the people who hae packed light enough to take transit to the airport. The level of transfers don't matter to this group. If you've packed more then this you'd take a taxi! There is not group large enough who is packed in such away they could do a direct train route but being asked to transfer to a stump line with low headways is too much.
Don't design transit based on slideshow bullet points! Direct Downtown to Aiport rail link - Check
Design for real human needs

When I travel for more than a few days, I expect to be carrying a larger bag and carry-on. It is an attraction to have easy access from the airport to downtown. As part of my upcoming trip to Scandinavia, part of my planning is for easy access to train stations and airports. I am trying to avoid expensive taxis or long walks in unknown places. This kind of easy access is becoming the norm in more and more cities throughout the world. In Canada, we already have that easy access to the airport in Toronto and Vancouver. Montreal is likewise moving forward in a same manner even though the airport connection will be a branch line.

In my travels, this kind of convenience is becoming more and more important and I have experienced it in many places.

What we are planning will appeal to only a small portion of the market.

Are we building a shuttle train at Cadillac prices only for those travelling on bargain basement budgets? If this is worth the investment, we need to attract a much broader market.

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by acottawa

More like

1. Get your luggage and take the elevator upstairs.
2. Cross the bridge to the parking garage.
3. Get on another elevator to the train station.
4. Take the train for two stops.
5. Get off the train at Walmart. Wait on the same platform for another train.
6. Make super sure you get on a train marked "Bayview" and not the train market "Bowesville"
7. Take the next train for 8 or 9 stops. Don't be alarmed the train keeps stopping to wait for another one. Canadians can't afford two tracks.
8. Get off in the middle of an empty field. Look for an elevator to take you to another platform.
9. Follow the signs marked "Trim"
10. Take the tram for 3 stops. You are now downtown congratulations.

As opposed to the bus instructions.

1. Exit the door where you just picked up your luggage.
2. You will see a bus on your right. Board it, it will take you downtown.

Is that some special version of Lonely Planet for 8-year olds you are talking about?
Because any normal guide for adults would just include system map and mention train station at the terminal.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

10. Take the tram for 3 stops. You are now downtown congratulations.

Is "tram" the Ottawa transit debate equivalent of the right-wing nutjobs' "cuck" or something?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Is that some special version of Lonely Planet for 8-year olds you are talking about?
Because any normal guide for adults would just include system map and mention train station at the terminal.

A normal guide would want to emphasize how weirdly complicated taking the train is compared to other cities to help inform its readers as the determine how to get to the city centre and to help visitors determine the relative value of taking the train.

Also, they don't tend to list super-complicated options for getting to the airport (such as getting to Rome airport via the Rome-Lido line or Montreal airport via the Dorval station).

This is the current Lonely Planet description for the straightforward bus.

The cheapest way to get to the airport is by city bus. Take bus 97 from Slater St between Elgin St and Bronson Ave (make sure you are heading in the 'South Keys & Airport' direction). The ride takes 40 minutes and costs $3.65.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

A normal guide would want to emphasize how weirdly complicated taking the train is compared to other cities to help inform its readers as the determine how to get to the city centre and to help visitors determine the relative value of taking the train.

Also, they don't tend to list super-complicated options for getting to the airport (such as getting to Rome airport via the Rome-Lido line or Montreal airport via the Dorval station).

This is the current Lonely Planet description for the straightforward bus.

The cheapest way to get to the airport is by city bus. Take bus 97 from Slater St between Elgin St and Bronson Ave (make sure you are heading in the 'South Keys & Airport' direction). The ride takes 40 minutes and costs $3.65.

In my backpacker days that would have been perfect.

[bikegypsy]

Originally Posted by uhuniau

is "tram" the ottawa transit debate equivalent of the right-wing nutjobs' "cuck" or something?

lol!

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Is "tram" the Ottawa transit debate equivalent of the right-wing nutjobs' "cuck" or something?

It is using terminology that would be recognizable to international visitors, which is the kind of thing a guidebook would want to do. The word "tram" appears 69 times in the Citadis's wikipedia article.

[FFX-ME]

Do you think the Baseline vs. Moodie lines will be interlined all the way to Trim road?

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by acottawa

It is using terminology that would be recognizable to international visitors, which is the kind of thing a guidebook would want to do. The word "tram" appears 69 times in the Citadis's wikipedia article.

The vehicles are visually obvious as trams but they function as metro trains, due to their high speed, stopping only at substantial stations, grade-separated guideway, etc.

Given that vehicle appearances are only really a thing that matters to transit geeks, a guidebook aiming at international audiences would probably be best off describing the Confederation Line as a metro.