Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And of course, the biggest and most famous Mardi Gras on this continent is not in Quebec but in New Orleans, Louisiana.

According to this website, and as I suspected, Mardi Gras did indeed take place in French Canada in the past despite the cold weather (that would have been surprising otherwise, given the fiercely Catholic nature of French Canada). In Québec apparently it disappeared after the 1950s. So it's quite similar to most of France where it also oddly disappeared after the 1950s.

https://rdaq.banq.qc.ca/expositions_virt...aval_mardi_gras/clin_oeil_tradition.html

Here Mardi Gras somewhere in rural Québec in 1925:





Here in Québec City in 1912. As you can see, they followed strictly the religious calendar, because in 1912 Madrid Gras (i.e. last day before the start of Lent) was on February 20, so it was a real carnaval celebrating the last day before Lent.



This year, 2024, Mardi Gras is... today.

Well today for us (tomorrow for you guys).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I had never heard that one. It's not well known here.

The most famous authentically French Christmas carol is this one (which I find extremely beautiful, and it makes me shiver every time).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAtRA8RUg2s

I knew this would be the song just by reading your message, even before clicking on the YouTube link.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

That being said, I wasn't referring to these Christmas carols. If they played these carols in French supermarkets, that wouldn't go down well with customers at all. I said the French are very passive, but if I can imagine some of them reacting, that would be if a supermarket played those religious songs. You can be sure some secular hardliners would complain (and other less hardliner people would find it very odd indeed, as if we were in a church and not a supermarket).

I was referring more to secular French Christmas songs, such as this very famous one (which you almost never hear anymore, everything having been replaced by Nat King Cole and the likes):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPwUJDtvxJA

I also could have predicted this one too based on your message.

It's still very popular here, and heard very frequently during the Christmas season. Both the original Tino Rossi version and innumerable remakes by artists from Quebec and France.

While some places here do go "full Nat King Cole + Mariah Carey" for Christmas, you also have lots of places where there is a mix and so you'll get Chestnuts Roasting on an Open Fire and All I Want For Christmas is Yooooooooooou, mixed in with Petit Papa Noël, Noël C'est l'Amour, Enfants de Palestine, Le Petit Renne au Nez Rouge, Le Sentier de Neige, in addition to Adeste Fideles and Feliz Navidad. And of course there are places that only do songs in French.

Which means that the average person is almost certainly familiar with all of these songs.

Even your average Anglo-Montrealer or even Anglo-Ottawan would probably recognize Petit Papa Noël. Though that recognition drops off really quickly once you get deeper into Anglo-Canada.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by big T

As an aside to your other point on Quebec being more exposed, and since I know you'll get a kick out of it -- I was at a wedding in Estrie on Saturday, about 80 guests, 95% Qc francophones. And the main convo topic was... the superbowl.

I was on the bus here in Gatineau this morning, and there were two middle-aged guys talking in Arabic, asking each other if they watched the Super Bowl.

Both of them were like "Naaah, not really. The Mundial (World Cup) speaks to me a lot more and is a way better game!"

[MolsonExport]

Jesus was from the Middle East. The Christmas tree is from Germany. St. Nicholas is buried in Bari, Italy, and was born in modern-day Turkey. His modern derivative, Santa Claus (Pere Noel) is a direct descendent of Sinterklaas, which is from Dutch culture.

Pure laine

Just sayin'...what is 'authentic' is often not at all 'authentic'

Spaghetti (that famous Italian dish) would not exist without noodles (from Asia) and tomatoes (from Central and South America). Spaghetti Bolognais has meat from taurine cattle domesticated in Anatolia.

[big T]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I was on the bus here in Gatineau this morning, and there were two middle-aged guys talking in Arabic, asking each other if they watched the Super Bowl.

Both of them were like "Naaah, not really. The Mundial (World Cup) speaks to me a lot more and is a way better game!"

là non plus, pas de surprise!

assuming they were immigrants. you stick with the stuff you grew up with.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Jesus was from the Middle East. The Christmas tree is from Germany. St. Nicholas is buried in Bari, Italy, and was born in modern-day Turkey. His modern derivative, Santa Claus (Pere Noel) is a direct descendent of Sinterklaas, which is from Dutch culture.

Pure laine

Just sayin'...what is 'authentic' is often not at all 'authentic'

Spaghetti (that famous Italian dish) would not exist without noodles (from Asia) and tomatoes (from Central and South America). Spaghetti Bolognais has meat from taurine cattle domesticated in Anatolia.

So does this mean that no one is allowed to have any traditions they call their own?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

So does this mean that no one is allowed to have any traditions they call their own?

No but it means the idea of cultural appropriation is complete BS and it also means most of our culture is newer than we think.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

So does this mean that no one is allowed to have any traditions they call their own?

No. He's saying many traditions are cross cultural and blended. Most North Americans are blended themselves, and thus comfortable with this.

But, then again, as we all know, in Quebec, culture and language are so deeply linked and intertwined that they can never be separated, and to even suggest such a thing would lead to immediate shunning and banishment.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

No but it means the idea of cultural appropriation is complete BS and it also means most of our culture is newer than we think.

In most cases, cultural appropriation is complete BS. Sometimes though, people can be very insensitive in their act of "borrowing", and should be careful about this. Occasionally apologies are necessary.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

No but it means the idea of cultural appropriation is complete BS and it also means most of our culture is newer than we think.

You are addressing two different concepts here.

First of all - yes cultural appropriation is BS and the idea that a non-Asian woman can't give a yoga class at the University of Ottawa is preposterous.

That said, all cultures evolve but do so in their own way. The end result in spite of the evolution is still something uniquely X.

The culture of Italian immigrants in the new world was adapted quite differently in Buenos Aires versus New York.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You are addressing two different concepts here.

First of all - yes cultural appropriation is BS and the idea that a non-Asian woman can't give a yoga class at the University of Ottawa is preposterous.

That said, all cultures evolve but do so in their own way. The end result in spite of the evolution is still something uniquely X.

The culture of Italian immigrants in the new world was adapted quite differently in Buenos Aires versus New York.

Yes agreed. But pizza culture in BA, Naples, or New York isn't better because it's older. In fact they are all just as old as all have evolved. Pizza exploded in Italy during post war years as well. In BA they spread the cheese on after they cook it. That doesn't make it inauthentic or inferior in any way. In New York pizza is so ubiquitous (much more than anywhere in Italy) it's not even limited to Italian culture anymore. Doesn't mean the Lebanese immigrant making pizza is appropriating Italian culture.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

In most cases, cultural appropriation is complete BS. Sometimes though, people can be very insensitive in their act of "borrowing", and should be careful about this. Occasionally apologies are necessary.

Example?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yes agreed. But pizza culture in BA, Naples, or New York isn't better because it's older. In fact they are all just as old as all have evolved. Pizza exploded in Italy during post war years as well. In BA they spread the cheese on after they cook it. That doesn't make it inauthentic or inferior in any way. In New York pizza is so ubiquitous (much more than anywhere in Italy) it's not even limited to Italian culture anymore. Doesn't mean the Lebanese immigrant making pizza is appropriating Italian culture.

For the people involved, it's not a question of being "better", it's a question of being "us" or "ours".

The donair isn't necessarily better or worse than a gyros or a kebab, but what it's become is classically Nova Scotian (or Maritimer).

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

For the people involved, it's not a question of being "better", it's a question of being "us" or "ours".

The donair isn't necessarily better or worse than a gyros or a kebab, but what it's become is classically Nova Scotian (or Maritimer).

Yes but go to Halifax with a Greek and they'll say that is not a real Gyros. Which (I'm guessing) probably comes from Turkey or points east anyway.

Totally agree on the us or ours but add whole wheat wrap to a Donair and it is something new and people from Halifax will claim it's not authentic. It never ends.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yes but go to Halifax with a Greek and they'll say that is not a real Gyros. Which (I'm guessing) probably comes from Turkey or points east anyway.

Totally agree on the us or ours but add whole wheat wrap to a Donair and it is something new and people from Halifax will claim it's not authentic. It never ends.

But that's the whole point. It's not a gyros, it's a donair. It's not Greek. It's Canadian (Nova Scotian).

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Jesus was from the Middle East. The Christmas tree is from Germany. St. Nicholas is buried in Bari, Italy, and was born in modern-day Turkey. His modern derivative, Santa Claus (Pere Noel) is a direct descendent of Sinterklaas, which is from Dutch culture.

Pure laine

Just sayin'...what is 'authentic' is often not at all 'authentic'

Spaghetti (that famous Italian dish) would not exist without noodles (from Asia) and tomatoes (from Central and South America). Spaghetti Bolognais has meat from taurine cattle domesticated in Anatolia.

This is a good post but this one bit (bolded) isn't actually true. Noodles probably developed independently in both East Asia & the Mediterranean; the Romans ate them. (Not that weird, it's a simple food.) Marco Polo bringing back noodles from China is an urban legend.

[Acajack]

https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=40...d8Q0pQJegQIDRAB&biw=1280&bih=621&dpr=1.5

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Example?

Chief Wahoo of the Cleveland Indians comes to mind.

Please note that I firmly believe that the vast majority of cultural appropriations are innocent, and in some cases meant to be flattering. It is only just occasionally that an appropriation in insensitive. So, when I say occasionally apologies may be necessary, I truly mean occasionally.

Most of the time the "victim" is just being way too thin skinned and brittle.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by big T

là non plus, pas de surprise!

assuming they were immigrants. you stick with the stuff you grew up with.

One (European) reader of the Financial Times summed it up today:

From landing on the Moon to watching a mediocre "sport". The decline made manifest.

I think that's what most Europeans think.

Never understood the whole Super Bowl thing. US sport is bizarre from A to Z anyway. Like non-metric units.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

One (European) reader of the Financial Times summed it up today:

I think that's what most Europeans think.

Never understood the whole Super Bowl thing. US sport is bizarre from A to Z anyway. Like non-metric units.

LOL, sure because Europeans and their behaviour around soccer matches have anything to feel superior about.