Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Do the French have a festival/holiday where they dress up in costumes and children get treats?

Yes, and we even exported it to North America.

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Unsurprisingly, Mardi Gras (or "le carnaval", as it's more commonly known in France since the 20th century) has declined a lot in the past 30 years in France, whereas Halloween popped out of nowhere and grew and grew and grew. It's really tragic to witness a country's cultural suicide like that.

These days "carnaval" remains strong only in Nice. Until the mid-20th century, there were big parades in all French cities like in New Orleans. When I was in primary school, we still dressed up and paraded in the streets. These days there are no parades anymore, and I don't see kids dressing up anymore. And those stupid parents dress kids for "Halloween" instead, while the media (French media) have tried to portray Halloween as an "Irish tradition", in order to make parents feel less guilty about this obvious Americanization of France.

That was "carnaval" in Paris when they still had the parade in the streets on Mardi Gras day (the last day before the start of Lent). Now it's completely disappeared in Paris and most other French cities.

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[big T]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

At least you guys complain. Here no one complains. The French are always very passive. Although this year I've noticed some supermarkets spared us the Christmas songs, so that's the ones where I shopped preferentially.

I get the sense you like to play contrarian and come up with all sorts of hot takes, but this one stands out. Well done.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by big T

I get the sense you like to play contrarian and come up with all sorts of hot takes, but this one stands out. Well done.

I understand that it can sound odd seen from outside of France, because of the French reputation for striking, but you don't know the country as intimately as I do. Striking is the preserve of a small group of left-wing unions who gather less than 10% of French workers (most French workers are not unionized in fact, to the surprise of many when they discover these figures, France is one of the least unionized countries in the Western world). These strikes take place in some well defined sectors (public employees, teachers, train drivers), but the vast majority of French workers do not strike and do not belong to any union.

When I say the French are very passive, I mean they won't be pro-active the way Americans are. Americans don't like something, they call the manager and complain. The French don't like something, they just grumble ("râler" is the French term) but do otherwise nothing about it. This is a people that can take things for a very long time without reacting, unlike the Americans, so pent-up pressure builds up, until it suddenly explodes in revolutions or big things like Gilets Jaunes.

Needless to say, I much prefer the American attitude. I tended to be like that too, but when you live in France you soon end up becoming passive too, because being pro-active achieves nothing here (for example, if you don't like some customer service, calling the manager to complain will lead to no result whatsoever in France). It's just wasting time and energy for no result. So you end up "râler" and doing nothing, and trying to find ways around the system, as most French do.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

At least you guys complain. Here no one complains. The French are always very passive. Although this year I've noticed some supermarkets spared us the Christmas songs, so that's the ones where I shopped preferentially.

What about Halloween? Strong in Québec? In France we've been invaded with Halloween 15 years ago, it's insane. But now it has become more of a lower class thing. I notice more Halloween stuff when I travel to small town France, whereas in high-brow Paris Halloween is much more subdued these days. Small town France is always 10 years behind the curve.

This year (well 2023 I mean) however, there's been a renewed wave of Halloween. I thought it was slowly dying, now that the novelty and "seen in US series" effect was over, but for unknown reasons it's been stronger this year in Parisian stores that in the past 5 or 6 years.

So how about you guys?

Halloween is quite popular here. Very mainstream and unavoidable. Though like most things it's not completely crazy like in the US.

It wasn't always the case and for people in their 60s and 70s in Quebec did not know Halloween in their youth. As I mentioned before I did not grow up in Quebec but my friends who all were (in their 40s and 50s) did do trick or treating. So I think my generation in Quebec was probably the first to "have" Halloween here. Which means it would have started around 1970.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by big T

I actually agree with this. Though the thing with the English-speaking world, given its size and gravity pull, is that you end up with a massive "in between" fringe of people who partake into this shared anglo-american culture to a significant extent, in addition to another. Certainly way larger than with other cultural spheres.

There are all sorts of reasons (some of them good, even) that thinking in terms of this sort of "purity scale" is frowned upon. But if we go back to trying to classify countries, I think it helps to focus on the elites -- in which case, I would argue that Canada is, in fact, as solidly "anglosphere" as any of them, Quebec-born PMs notwithstanding.

As an aside to your other point on Quebec being more exposed, and since I know you'll get a kick out of it -- I was at a wedding in Estrie on Saturday, about 80 guests, 95% Qc francophones. And the main convo topic was... the superbowl.

No surprise there!

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Halloween is quite popular here. Very mainstream and unavoidable. Though like most things it's not completely crazy like in the US.

It wasn't always the case and for people in their 60s and 70s in Quebec did not know Halloween in their youth. As I mentioned before I did not grow up in Quebec but my friends who all were (in their 40s and 50s) did do trick or treating. So I think my generation in Quebec was probably the first to "have" Halloween here. Which means it would have started around 1970.

You mean you didn't do Halloween in Northern Ontario?

How do people in Québec see that Halloween? Lamenting this US cultural import?

In France "trick and treat" is rare, although I've seen some lower class parents trying to do it in small town France, but it's still regarded as a bit bizarre. Halloween still feels very much like an alien, foreign thing. It's mostly a commercial thing, stores putting Halloween decorations (more in the provinces than in Paris like I've said), and in small town France you can also see some parents towing their dressed up kids through the streets in the evening (but there's no parade, and no visit of houses for candies, except in rare cases). In Paris you never see kids dressed up on Halloween. It's purely some store decorations (and then not all stores).

What about carnaval? Was that ever a thing in Québec? It must have been, given the religious context.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Though like most things it's not completely crazy like in the US.

Although to be honest, when I lived in the SF Bay Area, I have no particular recollection of Halloween. So Halloween is not a crazy thing everywhere in the US. I don't remember anyone ever coming to our house to ask for candies. In fact in the Bay Area I remember more the Mexican national holiday being celebrated than Halloween. You see big pick-ups flying the Mexican flag everywhere on the Mexican national holiday (early September, if I remember well), but I have no particular recollection of anything special on Halloween.

No, the one thing that was really special about the US was Thanksgiving. It felt almost more important than Christmas. I was always invited for Thanksgiving lunch (oddly at 3-4pm, as is their custom), like I would have been by family members for Christmas lunch in France.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

You mean you didn't do Halloween in Northern Ontario?

How do people in Québec see that Halloween? Lamenting this US cultural import?

.

I did not grow up in Northern Ontario. But my wife did. They had Halloween there for sure. We also had Halloween in the parts of the ROC I grew up in.

Neither my parents (who grew up in Acadien towns in the Maritimes) or my wife's parents (francophones from Northern Ontario) had Halloween when they were growing up.

That said, Halloween is not seen as an issue in Quebec because people are so used it at this point. It is not seen as an alien import at all.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

No, the one thing that was really special about the US was Thanksgiving. It felt almost more important than Christmas. I was always invited for Thanksgiving lunch (oddly at 3-4pm, as is their custom), like I would have been by family members for Christmas lunch in France.

Yes, this is one big difference between Canada and the US, and this even applies to the US vs the ROC.

Canadian Thanksgiving is actually about five weeks earlier, around October 12.

In Quebec it is a holiday but not marked by that many people. Though some people will have a family dinner on the Sunday or the holiday Monday.

In the ROC it's more common for people to have a formal traditional Thanksgiving dinner with family.

But again, even in the ROC it is nothing like the US.

In Canada there is no competition for Christmas which is number one.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

What about carnaval? Was that ever a thing in Québec? It must have been, given the religious context.
.

"Carnaval" traditionally revolves around the arrival of lent and ash Wednesday and mardi gras, all of which for us is a very cold time of year.

And so our Carnavals tend to be winter carnivals.

The biggest one by far is in Quebec City:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_oLC6HsfeY

It even has its own famous song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I89eOzJwI8

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It is not seen as an alien import at all.

Well just the name of it...

Do they pronounce the "h" or not? In France they don't, it's "allo-ouine".

In Continental Europe I think there is still a possibility that Halloween will end up dying out eventually. It's not completely entrenched yet.

The disappearance of carnaval is more puzzling.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In Quebec it is a holiday but not marked by that many people. Though some people will have a family dinner on the Sunday or the holiday Monday.

What are you guys celebrating on "Thanksgiving"?

Isn't Thanksgiving supposed to commemorate the arrival of the Pilgrim Fathers in Massachusetts? That has nothing to do with Canada.

The one thing that I always found odd about Thanksgiving lunch in the US was how they insist on making traditional "Indian" dishes. Things that I never liked, like sweet potatoes, and something called "Indian bread" (which is a salty corn bread covered with honey). It always struck me as odd for a people who otherwise completely eradicated the native inhabitants of North America.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

What are you guys celebrating on "Thanksgiving"?

Isn't Thanksgiving supposed to commemorate the arrival of the Pilgrim Fathers in Massachusetts? That has nothing to do with Canada.

The one thing that I always found odd about Thanksgiving lunch in the US was how they insist on making traditional "Indian" dishes. Things that I never liked, like sweet potatoes, and something called "Indian bread" (which is a salty corn bread covered with honey). It always struck me as odd for a people who otherwise completely eradicated the native inhabitants of North America.

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/thanksgiving-day

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes they do in a lot of places. Not everywhere but it's still very common.

There are complaints about it however.

I've heard US Christmas carols in shopping centres in Japan. I asked about it, and was told it was just an adoption of an American custom based upon gift giving (i.e. shopping commerce). There are no religious connotations (most Japanese are Buddhists and celebrate New Years, not Christmas), but everyone seemed happy at the novelty of Christmas trees and related 'anglo' songs. I didn't hear complaints or that there was a concern for this being a threat to Japanese culture - at least among the people I talked to about it. It just seemed like a novelty in a country that I would offer has historically been more insular than most.

Just 2¢.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Well just the name of it...

Do they pronounce the "h" or not? In France they don't, it's "allo-ouine".

In Continental Europe I think there is still a possibility that Halloween will end up dying out eventually. It's not completely entrenched yet.

The disappearance of carnaval is more puzzling.

The H is silent in "Halloween" here too.

My wife however pronounces the H even when saying it in French, due to her Ontario upbringing. And everyone finds it weird.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

"Carnaval" traditionally revolves around the arrival of lent and ash Wednesday and mardi gras, all of which for us is a very cold time of year.

Ah, I had forgotten about that. Though that never prevented the Scandinavians from celebrating carnaval. You dress up more warmly I suppose.

In the south of France, it was often warm enough on carnaval (some years I had short sleeves at the time of carnaval).

One tradition we had, which I really hated (don't know if you guys also have that), is on carnaval day (by that I mean Mardi Gras, the last day before Lent, not the fantasy dates that they now pick up around the world for their carnivals), in high school, kids would throw eggs and flour at each other. I still see some kids throwing flour at each other some years in the streets, even in Paris. Kids in high school were particularly vicious with it, so I decided to dress up as a ghost during my high school days for carnaval, with a large white sheet and two holes for the eyes, that way there were no clothes to soil and nothing to wash afterwards.

I'm curious if you also have that very annoying custom in the Francophone parts of Canada (it's perhaps some custom that appeared long after we lost Canada).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I've heard US Christmas carols in shopping centres in Japan. I asked about it, and was told it was just an adoption of an American custom based upon gift giving (i.e. shopping commerce). There are no religious connotations (most Japanese are Buddhists and celebrate New Years, not Christmas), but everyone seemed happy at the novelty of Christmas trees and related 'anglo' songs. I didn't hear complaints or that there was a concern for this being a threat to Japanese culture - at least among the people I talked to about it. It just seemed like a novelty in a country that I would offer has historically been more insular than most.

Just 2¢.

You mean you can't see why the French (and also French Canadians) who have their own native Christmas traditions and songs going back hundreds of years, would balk at having them supplanted by commercial Hollywood imports, and that the Japanese, with no homegrown Christmas traditions, would not care?

EDIT: As just one example, my mom sang this song among many Christmas songs when she was in a choir. It goes back to the start of the 1600s, probably before my ancestors came to Canada. The lyrics are still easily understandable for us over 400 years later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc9a0AoNdw8

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Ah, I had forgotten about that. Though that never prevented the Scandinavians from celebrating carnaval. You dress up more warmly I suppose.

In the south of France, it was often warm enough on carnaval (some years I had short sleeves at the time of carnaval).

One tradition we had, which I really hated (don't know if you guys also have that), is on carnaval day (by that I mean Mardi Gras, the last day before Lent, not the fantasy dates that they now pick up around the world for their carnivals), in high school, kids would throw eggs and flour at each other. I still see some kids throwing flour at each other some years in the streets, even in Paris. Kids in high school were particularly vicious with it, so I decided to dress up as a ghost during my high school days for carnaval, with a large white sheet and two holes for the eyes, that way there were no clothes to soil and nothing to wash afterwards.

I'm curious if you also have that very annoying custom in the Francophone parts of Canada (it's perhaps some custom that appeared long after we lost Canada).

Never heard of this being done here.

And of course, the biggest and most famous Mardi Gras on this continent is not in Quebec but in New Orleans, Louisiana.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

My wife however pronounces the H even when saying it in French, due to her Ontario upbringing. And everyone finds it weird.

I can imagine. The other funny one is your unsuspecting Francophone dutifully trying to pronounce the "h" of "honest". (although perhaps the Francophone Canadians don't do that as often, because you are more accustomed to the English language, being surrounded by it as you are).

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You mean you can't see why the French (and also French Canadians) who have their own native Christmas traditions and songs going back hundreds of years, would balk at having them supplanted by commercial Hollywood imports, and that the Japanese, with no homegrown Christmas traditions, would not care?

Nope. I'm saying this is what I've experienced in Japan. No comment upon your Quebec (Acadien?) Christmas traditions, which presumably are still part of your family celebration?

However, on your 'being influenced by English language and anglo traditions thing'... yeah. Japanese don't care about being exposed to American superficial Christmas shopping traditions.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

EDIT: As just one example, my mom sang this song among many Christmas songs when she was in a choir. It goes back to the start of the 1600s, probably before my ancestors came to Canada. The lyrics are still easily understandable for us over 400 years later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc9a0AoNdw8

I had never heard that one. It's not well known here.

The most famous authentically French Christmas carol is this one (which I find extremely beautiful, and it makes me shiver every time).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAtRA8RUg2s

This one is also very beautiful, but it's German originally (although it been adapted in French since the 19th century):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHWymQxzCIQ

That being said, I wasn't referring to these Christmas carols. If they played these carols in French supermarkets, that wouldn't go down well with customers at all. I said the French are very passive, but if I can imagine some of them reacting, that would be if a supermarket played those religious songs. You can be sure some secular hardliners would complain (and other less hardliner people would find it very odd indeed, as if we were in a church and not a supermarket).

I was referring more to secular French Christmas songs, such as this very famous one (which you almost never hear anymore, everything having been replaced by Nat King Cole and the likes):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPwUJDtvxJA