The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by ErickMontreal

I am so glad to hear that there is not drug in Moncton, this is a epidemic that is not unique to Saint John.

Not going to wade into the Moncton vs Saint John debate (like a typical Freddy beacher. ), but I do take offense at the comment above. I have no idea what the drug situation is in either city, but just because someone says one place has a bad drug situation, does NOT imply that the other place has no drug problem at all. It's a false dichotomy that you are trying to set up which the first poster did not imply at all.

It is obvious the first poster was just trying to imply that Saint John's drug situation was worst than Moncton's. Whether that is true or not is another matter, but it was clear he was NOT implying that Moncton was drug free.

[thefishingnut]

Originally Posted by RaginRonic

(This thread is for both Moncton and Saint John, so it is cross-posted)

For a long time, I've been thinking about a comparison between Moncton and Saint John, and now it's time for me to share my thoughts on the 2 cities.

It's really not. I don't understand this persistent need for Moncton posters to come on and post this sort of comparison drivel. If you want to do it, please keep it on the Moncton thread. Thanks

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by thefishingnut

It's really not. I don't understand this persistent need for Moncton posters to come on and post this sort of comparison drivel. If you want to do it, please keep it on the Moncton thread. Thanks

RaginRonic is not a regular poster on the Moncton forum. Most of his posts have been on the Saint John forum, with some in the Hamilton Ontario forum. I would assume he's an ex-Saint Johner now living in Ontario.

He has only posted on the Moncton forum once, so don't try to blame all Moncton forumers for his opinions......

[thefishingnut]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

RaginRonic is not a regular poster on the Moncton forum. Most of his posts have been on the Saint John forum, with some in the Hamilton Ontario forum. I would assume he's an ex-Saint Johner now living in Ontario.

He has only posted on the Moncton forum once, so don't try to blame all Moncton forumers for his opinions......

Fair enough, apologize for that comment.

[JHikka]

Look at that, I leave the forum for a few days and the whole thing goes to shit.

It's pointless to compare Moncton & Saint John.

I could throw in any of my personal beliefs about the city but i'm sure they'd get flamed like the rest of them in here, so the only thing i'll say is that whenever I travel around the province (or the maritimes) and tell people that i'm from Saint John, the other person usually laughs and makes a comment about how dirty it is. It's usually referred to as the pit of NB and etc. etc. My friends from Ontario call SJ "Little Hamilton". I guess it's a fair comparison considering their industrial backgrounds.

If Saint John is going to start operating properly it needs to be run like a business. Deficits can't be allowed, people should be able to be laid off, and prosperity needs to be first and foremost.

As for the pollution problem, Saint John does have a lot of heavy industry that contributes to poor air quality, but what also plays into this is all of the pollution from the Eastern American Seaboard coming up the Atlantic Jet Stream into the Bay of Fundy. We could remove all of the heavy industrial pollution in Saint John all we wanted, but we'd still get all the dirty air from the states.

Originally Posted by CBCNews

Fitch pitches municipal reform

Local Government Minister Bruce Fitch was part of a panel discussion in Saint John Saturday, along with Saint John Mayor Ivan Court.

"Cities are the engines of the province, but they're not properly funded. Yet they're taking on these responsibilities that probably belong to another level government," Court said.

"And, as a result of that, their neighbouring communities have lower tax rates and so on, and that's not sustainable."

Amalgamation is a complicated process, fraught with fear of tax increases and the loss of rural identity.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/story/2012/02/04/nb-government-reform-amalgamation.html

Before all of the valley folk get uppity, Quispamsis is digging themselves into the same hole that Saint John is in now by not raising property taxation rates as assessment rates rise. But what do I know about the valley? I'm just a dirty Saint Johner

[Southpaw78]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

People need to feel good about who they are and where they live. This is what defines a community.

You've hit the nail on the head here MonctonRad. Everyone needs to feel good about where they live and for people to put down someone else's home when they don't live there, I find is very disrespectful. Just for the record MonctonRad, enven though you are a Moncton poster, I always find your posts in the Saint John forum very supportive and respectful of Saint John.

Even though I live in Ottawa now, I will eventually move back to Saint John because I see the potential now the city can offer, the stunning geography, and the people. Every time I come back to visit, which is twice a year, the city is making leaps and bounds compared to where it was when I was going to SJHS in the mid-90's. Once boarded up storefronts and buildings on Canterbury and Prince William now have vibrant restaurants and companies that had taken time to preserve the heritage buildings.

Saint John is coming back from a set of bad economic circumstances regardless of whose fault it is. The fact it was names one of the top 7 intelligent communities globally is a testament to how the city is diversifying beyond it's industrial base. Stuff just takes time and in order to see change to happen one has to be patient. Moncton didn't come back after it's loss of the CN Railyards overnight....

[Southpaw78]

Originally Posted by GregHickman

whenever I travel around the province (or the maritimes) and tell people that i'm from Saint John, the other person usually laughs and makes a comment about how dirty it is. It's usually referred to as the pit of NB and etc. etc. My friends from Ontario call SJ "Little Hamilton". I guess it's a fair comparison considering their industrial backgrounds.

This happens a lot especially with other people who live within NB. There's still that perception in other parts of the province of SJ as a dirt, stinky city. Forget marketing SJ outside the province and the US, looks like we have to start within our own backyard first promoting how Saint John has changed, especially in the last 5-10 years. People are stuck on how Saint John used to look, be, and smell.

I disagree with the comparison of SJ to Hamilton. I've visited Hamilton a many number of times and had a close friend live there for 2 and a half years who has actually been to Saint John frequently and loves the city. When I hear him talk about Hamilton, and from what I've seen personally, the only thing really in common is the two are industrial cities. The urban cores are drastically different in terms of development.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Southpaw78

and from what I've seen personally, the only thing really in common is the two are industrial cities. The urban cores are drastically different in terms of development.

No no, I meant mostly the industrial nature of the city and not the downtown. Saint John has one of the best downtowns i've seen for a city it's size, unlike Hamilton.

[sjuser23]

Originally Posted by GregHickman

Look at that, I leave the forum for a few days and the whole thing goes to shit.

It's pointless to compare Moncton & Saint John.

I could throw in any of my personal beliefs about the city but i'm sure they'd get flamed like the rest of them in here, so the only thing i'll say is that whenever I travel around the province (or the maritimes) and tell people that i'm from Saint John, the other person usually laughs and makes a comment about how dirty it is. It's usually referred to as the pit of NB and etc. etc. My friends from Ontario call SJ "Little Hamilton". I guess it's a fair comparison considering their industrial backgrounds.

If Saint John is going to start operating properly it needs to be run like a business. Deficits can't be allowed, people should be able to be laid off, and prosperity needs to be first and foremost.

As for the pollution problem, Saint John does have a lot of heavy industry that contributes to poor air quality, but what also plays into this is all of the pollution from the Eastern American Seaboard coming up the Atlantic Jet Stream into the Bay of Fundy. We could remove all of the heavy industrial pollution in Saint John all we wanted, but we'd still get all the dirty air from the states.



Before all of the valley folk get uppity, Quispamsis is digging themselves into the same hole that Saint John is in now by not raising property taxation rates as assessment rates rise. But what do I know about the valley? I'm just a dirty Saint Johner

Let me correct something here, Saint John does not run a deficit, no municipality in NB runs one, not allowed to by legislation. So the next point is debt, SJ must have a lot of debt than and running it up. In actual fact, SJ pays less than 1/2 the debt that Dieppe pays as a percent of revenue and approx 50% less than Moncton when comparing as a percent of revenue. So in comparison, SJ does not have the debt problem that Moncton and Dieppe do if you are comparing what percent of their revenue goes toward debt and interest payments.

Negativity is a problem in SJ and the City needs to start tooting its own horn for its successes. Let's also be clear that while the city pays for the cost of supporting industry for the region, the province benefits and takes that taxation revenue and gives it to other areas of the province. The city does not see the direct benefit as it should. If that sharing was fixed, SJ would be a different place and i believe it will be a better place in the years to come. There is way too much talent, entrepreneurism and vision in this city for it not to succeed. Too many benefits to its location, port and history to be held down.

There are issues, Water and Sewage for example. the City needs 2 to 3 times the number of pumping stations due to its hills than would moncton, it will always be more expensive to operate the system here but everyone should be proud of our success despite equalization programs.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by sjuser23

There are issues, Water and Sewage for example. the City needs 2 to 3 times the number of pumping stations due to its hills than would moncton, it will always be more expensive to operate the system here but everyone should be proud of our success despite equalization programs.

Deficit or Debt, there's a problem either way. I'm not going to pretend as if i'm an economics major.

As for the lift stations: there has been one built and two more planned in the North End, and they're all near or at sea level. It's going to be a fun time when the spring freshid comes and they're all flooded out. For the money that's put into them it's going to be a shame when the water ruins them.

I'll agree on the point about Dieppe though. They're in a bad place right now. Guess that's what happens when you build community pools with million-dollar waterslides and tiles imported from Italy.

[Southpaw78]

Originally Posted by GregHickman

No no, I meant mostly the industrial nature of the city and not the downtown. Saint John has one of the best downtowns i've seen for a city it's size, unlike Hamilton.

OK got you

[JRocca]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I generally dislike posts that try and compare cities because there is a real danger that replies to the OP will degenerate into flame-fests.

But Erick is correct that Moncton and Saint John are two entirely different cities, with entirely different sets of attributes. They may be economic competitiors but they cannot pretend to be each other. Each city has to make the most of what they are.

I do agree that negativity is poisonous and there is no substitute for the power of positive thinking. Moncton has made a virtue of self promotion. There are many things that Saint John can rightly be proud of as well. Saint John should focus on these and promote these attributes aggressively.

People need to feel good about who they are and where they live. This is what defines a community.

I too agree that these two cities and most Cities are different so comparisons are not possible.But we can learn lessons from each other.
All Cities have strengths and weaknesses and successes and failures that we can all use to improve our own communities.
Saint John, for example,can teach most Cities of its size in North America-including Moncton-how you can create a downtown that is very dynamic despite the fact that it still has lots of room for improvement.Few other Cities in North America have been able to build an indoor perdestrian system that hasn't taken away from the street life.And even fewer have the amount of public art that you can see,feel and touch.And fewer still are blessed with so much inventory of historical buildings that have been preserved and revitilized.
Moncton on the other hand can teach us how you can become an economic powerhouse shortly after hitting rock bottom. It can also teach the rest of the world how a minority can peacefully become intigrated into the overall community and in fact lead the charge in the revitilization of the community.The rebirth of Moncton has much less to do with the Anglo Saxon community and more to do with Acadian entrepreneurs and the Universite De Moncton which made Moncton the cultural and educational centre of Acadie.
All of you can think of example from other communities.
The key is to learn from each other rather than brag about what's great about your community that's not so great about someone elses City or be defensive about ones weakness.
The other is not to be defensive. I love to see someone aggressively disagree with me so long as it's done respectfully.I think those that have disagreed with me recently have done it respectfully. You can't learn much from someone that agrees with you.You can learn a lot from someone that disagrees with you if you are interested in learning rather than just stating your position.
Some have asked what all this has got to do with this forum.It has everthing to do with it.
When we invest in a harbourfront we are making a statement.We are saying that we have confidence in the long term future of Saint John.We are confident that despite its problems it will overcome.And those that lend us money are also expressing this confidence.
When Developers and lenders lose confidence in a community's ability to take advantage of the opportunities that come along, and address its STRUCTURAL problems, then they will invest elsewhere.
Saint John faces a number of significant challenges.Many Cities do and many face far more serious challenges.
What developers and lenders want to know is not what is the solution to the pension problem or the water problem or urban sprawl and who will solve them.They want to know if the City has the CAPACITY to solve them.The capacity to solve problems revolves around the question of good management and determination to address the problems
Some have mistaken my comments as taking shots at the present administration right before an election.Clearly I did not do a good enough job in explaining that my concern is Council after Council refusal to address the tough issues.The pension plan is a good example.We've known about this problem for more than 10 years.Yet,all previous Councils just passed the buck to the next one.This Council wants the Province to change the rules to ease the pain not solve the problem.
On the positive side, the last couple of councils finally took the leadership role in addressing the water and sewage disposal problem that dozens of Councils before them turned a blind eye to.
All organizations, be they Cities, Unions, for profit corporations, or not for profit corporations have their strengths and their weaknesses.The great ones are blessed with citizens and leaders that consistently address their challenges rather than leaving them to the next generation to solve.
Oh, by the way, I am not saying all this because I plan to run in the next election.I am very happy making my contribution by doing what I know how to do and leave politics to others.

[cdnguys]

Despite all the city problems, Saint John has a unique feel to it that outsiders may not immediately appreciate. It's the small things like leaving Churchills pub on Grannan Street in the thick fog with the Trinity Church bell bonging as you shuffle along the historic Trinity Royal streets just as your ancestors did - maybe have the feel that Jack the Ripper is lurking in Jardine Alley or Horsefild Street. Or dining in a renovated old building that was the stomping ground of Benedict Arnold. A fresh snow fall in the loyalist burial ground with the large gates and lanterns are breathtaking. In the thickest of fog the haunting fog horn in Courtney Bay sounds like its right outside your window. I also love the city market with all the local characters over the years - from Popeyes the beggar to the harmonica lady outside of Billy's this city reads like a storybook. Yes there is extreme poverty and extreme wealth and "nicer looking" cities but no other place compares in the hearts of born and bred Saint Johners.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by JRocca

I would be delighted to see a new municipal funding structure but to argue that it somehow results "very serious structural issues that put Saint John at a disadvantage" is difficult to accept when Moncton and Fredericton are subject to the same rules and they are doing just fine-so much so that their regions are now doing much better than ours.

You’ve just made the assumption about Moncton and Fredericton’s success. This is only relative to Saint John. The fact, however, is that both Moncton and Fredericton share their sprawling patterns with Saint John, and like Saint John cannot afford their suburban infrastructure. All three cities have stagnant downtown cores; all three cities are characteristic of providing retail via box-stores/strip malls and business parks; all three cities are running amazing deficits and must now carry the extra burrden of the increasing costs of everything at amplified speeds.

Even a novice or casual news watcher or paper reader should hold this a true.

Originally Posted by JRocca

And why/how did the municipal funding system stop us from looking after our water or our streets? And how did it force us into negotiating away genereous pensions or make the pension board make poor investment decisions?
And did the Province do something in Saint John to encourage people to move to suburbia that it didn't do in Moncton or fredericton?

No. The encouragement is present in all three cities, but SJ has all the additional baggage as has been mentioned by some on this forum.

Originally Posted by JRocca

Are these problems really caused by a flawed funding structure or by an addiction to spending and poor choices?

I certainly think an addiction to spending constitutes a flawed funding structure. An addiction to making poor choices.. : are you implying the municipal government enjoys generating drama? I believe it is more ignorance of planning costs and much less political corruption. I believe it is more impulsive for immediate competition with other New Brunswick cities. In this province, I’ve often heard the phrase “any development is better than no development.”

It is not a fortunate scenario when the vast majority of that development is unsustainable.

Originally Posted by JRocca

If you believe that it's the latter, than money alone will not fix our problems any more than giving an addict more money will solve his addiction.
Moneyt is not why Blackberry can't compete with Apple and Samsung.Blacberry has billions.It's losing the war because the others have better management.
Management -not money or obstacles is the distinguishing factor in the success or failure of any organization be it in the public sector, business or sports.
Look at Business.You remember Nortel,K-mart,Woolco,Eton,and Kodac. Where are they now? Did they not have billions at one time? What did money do for them?

It definitely made a few people rich. If Saint John is akin to a poorly managed company ready to go under... well, at least some people got rich building your roads and supplying your cars with gas and supplying the pulp and paper demand with all the deforested areas for retail surface parking and residential housing.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

RyeJay, I don't know how much you know about Saint John:

The city is more "a victim of circumstance" as anything else.........

There are a number of reasons why people in SJ live in the suburbs over the downtown core.

The weather in the KV is certainly better than downtown (a lot less fog and a lot warmer in the summertime), and 20-25 years ago, pollution was also an issue as well (not so now). Nevertheless, this provided the historical context for the "flight to the suburbs" that occurred in Saint John. The city meanwhile was stuck with an increased tax burden of providing de facto municipal services for a much larger effective population than actually lived within the civic boundaries. This tax burden made the suburbs even more enticing and caused even more people to choose Quispamsis, Rothesay, Hampton or Grand Bay/Westfield. over the city. A vicious cycle ensued.

Though there is a noticeable difference in summer temperatures between SJ and KV, to suggest drastic difference is exaggerating. Regardless, for the sake of argument: every independent community around SJ is comparatively a paradise. Sure. ..Then where are their density efforts?

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Unlike Halifax, Saint John is not a large "regional municipality". The city has no control over the suburbs. The suburbs are not even in Saint John County!!! The city has really had little control over it's fate. SJ can't dictate what happens in the towns in the KV. It has no jurisdiction.

No jurisdiction, it would appear, even over its own density efforts. I realise Saint John doesn’t have the benefit of a large amalgamated region to which a fair taxation rate could be applied, but this is an aside to the reality of Saint John’s own lack of sustainable development. You would think the city’s overburdened and underfunded services and infrastructure would have long scared the city into urbanising (at least a little?) in an attempt to save money. It’s a long time for the city of Saint John to play its violin while blaming uncooperative local villages and townships. It’s disheartening to see all the communities scapegoating each other, while playing by the same expand-now-pay-later rules.

I'm not convinced that all parts of Saint John were always so unappealing as to have no worth of investment in terms of density. If there ever was, then for shame.

I care about these cities as well. It bothers me that people are acting as though urbanisation is a choice; it is not.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Saint John has actually done a good job in the last decade of making the core a more attractive place, and people are starting to move back. Just look at JRocca's new condo project across from the cruise ship terminal as an example.

I’ve tried finding materials online regarding Saint John’s downtown progress, to find more examples for you. From the mounds of negative news, I’m afraid the pros are difficult to locate. Granted, this condo development is a good step forward.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The city however unfortunately has a very large fiscal hole that it has to dig itself out of. Saint John is in a worse fiscal postion than any other city in the region, but for the most part, it isn't the fault of the city and it would be wrong to blame the city for it's current circumstances.

The solution in many ways would be regional amalgamation, but I don't know how that would work given the county boundaries and would probably be just as popular in SJ as the it would be in Moncton - and Moncton has the additional obstacle of linguistic paranoia.....

A blameless Saint John shall continue to degrade until the municipal government takes more responsibility. I would certainly hope amalgamation would enable this government to promote sustainable development more effectively, but it’s really the attitude of the people that needs some changing. Given the choice that technology has brought us: many choose a suburban lifestyle. The reality is that we cannot afford this lifestyle, or at least not everyone; certainly, not even the vast majority. We cannot sustain the debt anymore than the environment can sustain sprawled development.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by DoyleRulez

Don't take the criticisms on this forum too personally, most of the commentors are still students or recent grads that try to relate a chapter in a textbook to real life. The fact that you are the only person on this forum who has ever erected "skyscrapers" should speak volumes.

From what texts am I quoting? Perhaps you think this because some of my comments remind you of something you’ve read? It’s okay if you don’t want to admit to reading books. Applying what you learn to life can seem a bit excessive, especially to a 26 year old such as yourself.

But please ‘read’ the definition for “skyscraper.”

Originally Posted by DoyleRulez

I agree with all of your points. I am surprised at how many elected officials are teachers, accountants or lawyers and none of whom have ever owned their own firm. We lack business minded people leading our city. (Look at the $40 million complex we just built for an overfunded justice department that will bring in essentially 0$ additional investment dollars to the city.)

The old proverb that is takes money to make money is utterly false. It takes a creative mind to find solutions.

These men in council are speechless about the pension deficit because they have spent their lives working for hourly wages and relying on their own decaying retirement savings plans, without any idea what to do if the markets take a dive. Saving for retirement, being stuck in the rat race, and living by the standards of other people's thinking.

I am 26 years old and make more on a monthly basis in passive income than my friends who go to work every day as teachers relying on their government pensions. I started with nothing 3 years ago. And I have done nothing essentially "creative" or "innovative" in my opinion.

You’ve done nothing ‘creative’? Perhaps you should work for the municipal government? Let’s allow success to grace the city by chance.

Originally Posted by DoyleRulez

JRocca, I would love to see a visionary such as your self elected. If not elected, then a group of like-minded business people should be founded as essentially lobbyists. Men of business with political connections. If they do not wish to run then they should be using their influence to steer this city back on track.

I would like to see the Port City compared to Halifax in the coming decades rather than Fredericton or Moncton.

This comment made my day!

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Southpaw78

You've hit the nail on the head here MonctonRad. Everyone needs to feel good about where they live and for people to put down someone else's home when they don't live there, I find is very disrespectful. Just for the record MonctonRad, enven though you are a Moncton poster, I always find your posts in the Saint John forum very supportive and respectful of Saint John.

No, everyone does not need to intoxicate themself with thoughts of butterflies and rainbows; Saint John needs critical thinkers and business-oriented people at the helm.

I'm not concerned with your impression that criticisim for Saint John, even from people not living there, is 'disrespectful' because quite frankly the city getting to the bottom of its issues is far more important than your desperate need to romanticise the reality about your dying city.

The reality of Saint John is unpleasant -- and so will be the climb out (assuming the people can be critical about their own city and start paying attention to numbers and not emotions).

Originally Posted by Southpaw78

Saint John is coming back from a set of bad economic circumstances regardless of whose fault it is. The fact it was names one of the top 7 intelligent communities globally is a testament to how the city is diversifying beyond it's industrial base. Stuff just takes time and in order to see change to happen one has to be patient. Moncton didn't come back after it's loss of the CN Railyards overnight....

Oh. Saint John is smart, eh? That makes me feel better.

*butterflies and rainbows*

[MonctonRad]

Well, RyeJay is nothing if not argumentative and opinionated!

[RR Drummer]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Well, RyeJay is nothing if not argumentative and opinionated!

I was wondering who would say it first.

BTW...NBCC Energy building got their boilers last week and looks like they are being installed. As well there will be planned office moves, furniture, etc during the March break. Students and Faculty are hoping to enjoy the new facility March 12 unofficially.

[Fischbob]

Yeah, some very bad decisions have been made, including the wholesale clearance of Main Street and other commercial and heritage areas in the '50s-'70s urban renewal craze; that disastrous 1967 amalgamation; and the early 1970s municipal plan, which projected a population of around 250,000 for Saint John and encouraged the overbuilt infrastructure and sprawl we're struggling to maintain today. Of course hindsight is 20/20 and it's easy to slam such actions now, but most of these seeds were sown back when planning models like Oromocto and Bayers Lake seemed like a good idea.

The new municipal plan, recently passed, is a significant departure from the status quo for Saint John and finally looks inward rather than outward to grow. Considering the projected rate of population growth, change will be and must be gradual, however the transformations already underway in the Uptown and environs are nothing short of incredible to behold. Call it rainbows and butterflies if you want; I'll call it moving in the right direction.

The challenges Saint John continues to face are numerous and stark. I think most of us here understand that this is the case and that it's going to take some serious sacrifices and reforms at the municipal, regional, and provincial levels, to lift us into safe territory. At the end of the day though, what we need more of is not a wholesale attitude of negativity and doom, but an attitude which recognises the reality, is open to change and is willing to work tirelessly to effect that change which is necessary. Oh, and an attitude that remembers to celebrate the good every once in a while. I'm hoping that when May rolls around we'll have some candidates that fit the bill (for the love of god please!), but the onus is on everyone to foster this spirit.

And anyway, things aren't so bad. After all, our stadium is more or less on par with Halifax's.