The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[mylesmalley]

I see on the CBC that Ivan Court is concerned about public safety when the city lays off some police officers and firefighters. It got me curious about how many police a city of Moncton or Saint John ought to have.

According to this report: http://publications.gc.ca/collection_2010/statcan/85-225-X/85-225-x2010000-eng.pdf

...Moncton has the second lowest number of police per capita in Canada, while SJ has the highest.

The Saint John Police Force covers 102,521 people, with 207 officers, or 202 officers per 100,000 people.

Brantford, ON: Pop: 138,498, Police: 237, per 100k: 171.

Moncton: Pop: 134,299, Police: 158, per 100k: 118.

Kelowna is the only city in Canada with a lower per 100k rate, at 107 per 100k.

Those population numbers represent only the people within the territory the police force has jurisdiction over, so they don't necessarily match up exactly with the CMA.

Now granted, there is going to be a difference based on crime and severity, but that report indicates that SJ's Crime Severity Index is only a bit above Moncton's, and both NB cities are lower than Brantford and Kelowna.

Can anyone explain why there's such a big disparity?

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by mylesmalley

Can anyone explain why there's such a big disparity?

Population is only one factor.

Perhaps in the context of Saint John, there is more land to cover since the entire city has allowed itself to become suburban -- as opposed to making any real effort in urbanising toward the city's core, which also means public services such as police and firefighting can be utilised more efficiently.

The layoffs are very troubling. Not only is the city of Saint John not able to afford its sprawled infrustructure, which has left its downtown a poverty trap while most people live in the suburbs...not paying city taxes..., but the city is increasingly unable to afford its public services, which are desperately needed in the city's core due to its decay.

Maybe that is your disparity?

Maybe that's why no one expects Saint John to begin making decisions to reverse this decay. Ever.

[mylesmalley]

Does the municipal police force have anything to do with port security? Or would that all be done by CBSA?

[theshark]

Yes policing for the port is provided by local law enforcment agencies, CBSA's mandate is directed towards inspection of goods and people entering the country, any thefts, mischief or other crime would be investigated by Saint John police.

There used to be a Canada port police back in the days but it was disbanded in 1997.

[JRocca]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Population is only one factor.

Perhaps in the context of Saint John, there is more land to cover since the entire city has allowed itself to become suburban -- as opposed to making any real effort in urbanising toward the city's core, which also means public services such as police and firefighting can be utilised more efficiently.

The layoffs are very troubling. Not only is the city of Saint John not able to afford its sprawled infrustructure, which has left its downtown a poverty trap while most people live in the suburbs...not paying city taxes..., but the city is increasingly unable to afford its public services, which are desperately needed in the city's core due to its decay.

Maybe that is your disparity?

Maybe that's why no one expects Saint John to begin making decisions to reverse this decay. Ever.

I don't know enough about policing to comment on it but I do know something about affordability, urban core and flight to the suburbs.
As we all know, the flight to suburbia is not a phenomena unique to Saint John. It has happened to most Cities in North America.The automobile changed Cities from densely populated places where people huddled around public transportation to places of CHOICE.
The automobile freed us to live wheever we wanted and many of us said goodby to Saint John.
What is troubling is not the out migration as much as the lack of response to the out migration. Instead of responding with policies and initiatives that would make people want to live in the City, our leaders spent the last 30 years crying abou it and demanding that the suburbs pay for the City's poor planning and financial mismanagement.
Saint John's idea of leadership and management is to balme others for our problems and demand they fix our mistakes.So, the Province has to solve our mistakes in pension negotiations and Ottawa pay for our incompetent management of our water sytem.
In the world I live in, the way the City has managed water says all you need to know about the radical change needed in Saint John.
The taxpayers in their wisdom said that our public servants should manage and deliver our water and that we all should contribute to its cost. I totally agree with this philosophy.
So, what did our managers and politicians do with the monopoly?
They mismanaged it so badly that many people would rather buy it from the private sector than drink it and we've had to go on bended knees to other Canadians for money to help replace our infostructure.
So what did we do when we discovered how bad the problem was? Did we fire managers? Did we change the management system? Did we try to win back the loyalty of long suffering consumers? Did we go out to learn how the private sector could make money selling what we could not give away?
Of course not. We just made people pay more!!.This is like Blackberry deciding that the best way to compete with Apple and Samsung is to charge consumers mre to buy a BB. A brilliant and innovating strategy no doubt.
We need to stop balming and start managing.We can learn a lot from Apple. A once great institution lost its way only to refind it by great leadership chartering a new course that demanded that its staff delivering great products and great service or make room for others that would do it.
The battle to be the best is never lost until we give up.

[RR Drummer]

Originally Posted by JRocca

I don't know enough about policing to comment on it but I do know something about affordability, urban core and flight to the suburbs.
As we all know, the flight to suburbia is not a phenomena unique to Saint John. It has happened to most Cities in North America.The automobile changed Cities from densely populated places where people huddled around public transportation to places of CHOICE.
The automobile freed us to live wheever we wanted and many of us said goodby to Saint John.
What is troubling is not the out migration as much as the lack of response to the out migration. Instead of responding with policies and initiatives that would make people want to live in the City, our leaders spent the last 30 years crying abou it and demanding that the suburbs pay for the City's poor planning and financial mismanagement.
Saint John's idea of leadership and management is to balme others for our problems and demand they fix our mistakes.So, the Province has to solve our mistakes in pension negotiations and Ottawa pay for our incompetent management of our water sytem.
In the world I live in, the way the City has managed water says all you need to know about the radical change needed in Saint John.
The taxpayers in their wisdom said that our public servants should manage and deliver our water and that we all should contribute to its cost. I totally agree with this philosophy.
So, what did our managers and politicians do with the monopoly?
They mismanaged it so badly that many people would rather buy it from the private sector than drink it and we've had to go on bended knees to other Canadians for money to help replace our infostructure.
So what did we do when we discovered how bad the problem was? Did we fire managers? Did we change the management system? Did we try to win back the loyalty of long suffering consumers? Did we go out to learn how the private sector could make money selling what we could not give away?
Of course not. We just made people pay more!!.This is like Blackberry deciding that the best way to compete with Apple and Samsung is to charge consumers mre to buy a BB. A brilliant and innovating strategy no doubt.
We need to stop balming and start managing.We can learn a lot from Apple. A once great institution lost its way only to refind it by great leadership chartering a new course that demanded that its staff delivering great products and great service or make room for others that would do it.
The battle to be the best is never lost until we give up.

I agree with your thoughts. I especially love the Apple analogy (sidenote to RIM people.....learn from Apple's history!!). It is true. We have a great product. Saint John is a great City, with great citizens, and great businesses. It's our management and infrastructure that is the probelm. Fix that and the sky is the limit.

[sjuser23]

Originally Posted by JRocca

I don't know enough about policing to comment on it but I do know something about affordability, urban core and flight to the suburbs.
As we all know, the flight to suburbia is not a phenomena unique to Saint John. It has happened to most Cities in North America.The automobile changed Cities from densely populated places where people huddled around public transportation to places of CHOICE.
The automobile freed us to live wheever we wanted and many of us said goodby to Saint John.
What is troubling is not the out migration as much as the lack of response to the out migration. Instead of responding with policies and initiatives that would make people want to live in the City, our leaders spent the last 30 years crying abou it and demanding that the suburbs pay for the City's poor planning and financial mismanagement.
Saint John's idea of leadership and management is to balme others for our problems and demand they fix our mistakes.So, the Province has to solve our mistakes in pension negotiations and Ottawa pay for our incompetent management of our water sytem.
In the world I live in, the way the City has managed water says all you need to know about the radical change needed in Saint John.
The taxpayers in their wisdom said that our public servants should manage and deliver our water and that we all should contribute to its cost. I totally agree with this philosophy.
So, what did our managers and politicians do with the monopoly?
They mismanaged it so badly that many people would rather buy it from the private sector than drink it and we've had to go on bended knees to other Canadians for money to help replace our infostructure.
So what did we do when we discovered how bad the problem was? Did we fire managers? Did we change the management system? Did we try to win back the loyalty of long suffering consumers? Did we go out to learn how the private sector could make money selling what we could not give away?
Of course not. We just made people pay more!!.This is like Blackberry deciding that the best way to compete with Apple and Samsung is to charge consumers mre to buy a BB. A brilliant and innovating strategy no doubt.
We need to stop balming and start managing.We can learn a lot from Apple. A once great institution lost its way only to refind it by great leadership chartering a new course that demanded that its staff delivering great products and great service or make room for others that would do it.
The battle to be the best is never lost until we give up.

I'm surprised how naiive these thoughts are. The equal opportunity of the 60's has finally taken its toll and the pendulum has swung too far. the industry of the city costs a lot to maintain but the city keeps less than 10% of the revenue generated from that industry. The province and the are the city supports are the main beneficiarys. Its naiive to blame poor management. If the city did not have to prop up industry along with residential but just support residential as the outside areas do, the city would be in much better shape. We need a new provincial deal. outside of that happening, almagamation to reflect the true catchment area of industry is what's needed. Imagine if the city could keep the additional 180 million each year in industry property taxes! the city budget could more than double, who would appear as the poor cousin then? who would appear to have mismanagement? likely the area would be the burbs as the difference would be quite noticeable.
IMO

[Fischbob]

Originally Posted by sjuser23

I'm surprised how naiive these thoughts are. The equal opportunity of the 60's has finally taken its toll and the pendulum has swung too far. the industry of the city costs a lot to maintain but the city keeps less than 10% of the revenue generated from that industry. The province and the are the city supports are the main beneficiarys. Its naiive to blame poor management. If the city did not have to prop up industry along with residential but just support residential as the outside areas do, the city would be in much better shape. We need a new provincial deal. outside of that happening, almagamation to reflect the true catchment area of industry is what's needed. Imagine if the city could keep the additional 180 million each year in industry property taxes! the city budget could more than double, who would appear as the poor cousin then? who would appear to have mismanagement? likely the area would be the burbs as the difference would be quite noticeable.
IMO

Hear, hear! There may be room for improvement, but the tired old TJ editorial board jingle about poor management at City Hall only serves to obscure the very serious structural issues that put Saint John at a disadvantage (and predisposed to pro-cyclical policy!) before the municipal government even enters the picture. Add to that a remarkably dysfunctional Council in charge of executive decisions and you've got a recipe for trouble.

Quite frankly, the silence of Saint John MLAs on the pension issue is reprehensible. I hope the province realizes that its future rests in its cities as the only feasible poles for population and economic growth, and seriously considers municipal reform beyond what seems to be the very rural-oriented policy being rolled out now. Unfortunately I think it's going to take a municipal bankruptcy--or worse--before anyone in the Legislature wakes up.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by JRocca

I don't know enough about policing to comment on it but I do know something about affordability, urban core and flight to the suburbs.
As we all know, the flight to suburbia is not a phenomena unique to Saint John. It has happened to most Cities in North America.The automobile changed Cities from densely populated places where people huddled around public transportation to places of CHOICE.

Yes. The choice to develop freely on cheap land further away from the city’s core, which forces the extension of municipal social services and infrastructure: roads, water and sewage, utility lines, schools, police, firefighting, hospitals, etc. The taxpayers are forced to pay for this -- not the developers which have a ‘choice’ of cheap land.

Until Saint John has a stable downtown -- or at the very least begins to densify in one of its nicer suburbs -- you cannot claim to offer a full spectrum of ‘choices’ -- only an unafforable suburban bias.

Originally Posted by JRocca

The automobile freed us to live wheever we wanted and many of us said goodby to Saint John.
What is troubling is not the out migration as much as the lack of response to the out migration.

This is illogical. The lack of response would not be troubling if not for the ‘trouble’ of the original problem of “out migration.” I doubt very much that council spent 30 non-stop years, literally crying. The “poor planning” you’re alluding to is known as suburban sprawl: and yes, we should demand that the suburbanites pay for the city’s poor planning of having so many suburbs -- so far out reaching that the city’s infrastructural and public service budgets are crippled. Suburban land is cheap upfront, but extremely expensive in the long-term.

Saint John is not a young city; it should know better than to childishly throw everything to the fringes, while leaving the downtown core to rot as much as the city's budget sees red.

Originally Posted by JRocca

Instead of responding with policies and initiatives that would make people want to live in the City, our leaders spent the last 30 years crying abou it and demanding that the suburbs pay for the City's poor planning and financial mismanagement.

I do not want to involve myself in the history of your city’s managerial habits, nor am I interested in your scapegoating of the city's government. I am simply judging Saint John based on its commitment to sustainable urban development versus its unafforable amount of suburban development.

Originally Posted by JRocca

Saint John's idea of leadership and management is to balme others for our problems and demand they fix our mistakes.

Is this not what you're doing?

Originally Posted by JRocca

So, the Province has to solve our mistakes in pension negotiations and Ottawa pay for our incompetent management of our water sytem.
In the world I live in, the way the City has managed water says all you need to know about the radical change needed in Saint John.
The taxpayers in their wisdom said that our public servants should manage and deliver our water and that we all should contribute to its cost. I totally agree with this philosophy.

Then you and I agree: paying city taxes (even the suburbanites) is akin to this philosophy.

Originally Posted by JRocca

So, what did our managers and politicians do with the monopoly?
They mismanaged it so badly that many people would rather buy it from the private sector than drink it and we've had to go on bended knees to other Canadians for money to help replace our infostructure.
So what did we do when we discovered how bad the problem was? Did we fire managers? Did we change the management system? Did we try to win back the loyalty of long suffering consumers? Did we go out to learn how the private sector could make money selling what we could not give away?
Of course not. We just made people pay more!!

Are you able to go futher than simply claiming minsmanagment by the local politicians? I need details in order to care about something off-topic.

Originally Posted by JRocca

This is like Blackberry deciding that the best way to compete with Apple and Samsung is to charge consumers mre to buy a BB. A brilliant and innovating strategy no doubt.

Huh? What does this weak metaphor have to do with the topic?!?

I'll indulge you with a perspective to the contrary: It’s like Blackberry deciding to charge more because their customers would save more in the long-term due to higher quality. Apple and Samsung customers would be going through numerous phones, bleeding away much more money than they would have, had they originally invested in a higher quality (yet more expensive) Blackberry. Only paying attention to upfront costs is extremely narrow-minded. Does your shopping life begin and end at the Dollar Store?

Originally Posted by JRocca

We need to stop balming and start managing.We can learn a lot from Apple. A once great institution lost its way only to refind it by great leadership chartering a new course that demanded that its staff delivering great products and great service or make room for others that would do it.
The battle to be the best is never lost until we give up.

The battle is lost if you don't understand what you're fighting.

[homebody]

Not quite sure what all this talk has to do with building skyscrapers Lets move on from this mess the politicians created. Positive things

[JRocca]

Originally Posted by Fischbob

Hear, hear! There may be room for improvement, but the tired old TJ editorial board jingle about poor management at City Hall only serves to obscure the very serious structural issues that put Saint John at a disadvantage (and predisposed to pro-cyclical policy!) before the municipal government even enters the picture. Add to that a remarkably dysfunctional Council in charge of executive decisions and you've got a recipe for trouble.

Quite frankly, the silence of Saint John MLAs on the pension issue is reprehensible. I hope the province realizes that its future rests in its cities as the only feasible poles for population and economic growth, and seriously considers municipal reform beyond what seems to be the very rural-oriented policy being rolled out now. Unfortunately I think it's going to take a municipal bankruptcy--or worse--before anyone in the Legislature wakes up.

I would be delighted to see a new municipal funding structure but to argue that it somehow results "very serious structural issues that put Saint John at a disadvantage" is difficult to accept when Moncton and Fredericton are subject to the same rules and they are doing just fine-so much so that their regions are now doing much better than ours.
And why/how did the municipal funding system stop us from looking after our water or our streets? And how did it force us into negotiating away genereous pensions or make the pension board make poor investment decisions?
And did the Province do something in Saint John to encourage people to move to suburbia that it didn't do in Moncton or fredericton?
Are these problems really caused by a flawed funding structure or by an addiction to spending and poor choices? If you believe that it's the latter, than money alone will not fix our problems any more than giving an addict more money will solve his addiction.
Moneyt is not why Blackberry can't compete with Apple and Samsung.Blacberry has billions.It's losing the war because the others have better management.
Management -not money or obstacles is the distinguishing factor in the success or failure of any organization be it in the public sector, business or sports.
Look at Business.You remember Nortel,K-mart,Woolco,Eton,and Kodac. Where are they now? Did they not have billions at one time? What did money do for them?
look at Hockey.My Leafs have been and continue to be the most profitable team in the NHL.How successful have they been on the ice?.
When I complain about poor management and lack of leadership I am referring less to present and past Mayors and Councils and more to the "owners"-that elected them.
Elected officials just like the Leafs reflect what the "bosses" want.
Historically, we've been happy electing nice guys to be watch dogs over staff spending rather than visionaries that could take the City to a better place.
We got what we asked for.But is this what we need?

[MonctonRad]

RyeJay, I don't know how much you know about Saint John:

The city is more "a victim of circumstance" as anything else.........

There are a number of reasons why people in SJ live in the suburbs over the downtown core.

The weather in the KV is certainly better than downtown (a lot less fog and a lot warmer in the summertime), and 20-25 years ago, pollution was also an issue as well (not so now). Nevertheless, this provided the historical context for the "flight to the suburbs" that occurred in Saint John. The city meanwhile was stuck with an increased tax burden of providing de facto municipal services for a much larger effective population than actually lived within the civic boundaries. This tax burden made the suburbs even more enticing and caused even more people to choose Quispamsis, Rothesay, Hampton or Grand Bay/Westfield. over the city. A vicious cycle ensued.

Unlike Halifax, Saint John is not a large "regional municipality". The city has no control over the suburbs. The suburbs are not even in Saint John County!!! The city has really had little control over it's fate. SJ can't dictate what happens in the towns in the KV. It has no jurisdiction.

Saint John has actually done a good job in the last decade of making the core a more attractive place, and people are starting to move back. Just look at JRocca's new condo project across from the cruise ship terminal as an example.

The city however unfortunately has a very large fiscal hole that it has to dig itself out of. Saint John is in a worse fiscal postion than any other city in the region, but for the most part, it isn't the fault of the city and it would be wrong to blame the city for it's current circumstances.

The solution in many ways would be regional amalgamation, but I don't know how that would work given the county boundaries and would probably be just as popular in SJ as the it would be in Moncton - and Moncton has the additional obstacle of linguistic paranoia.....

[DoyleRulez]

Originally Posted by JRocca

I would be delighted to see a new municipal funding structure but to argue that it somehow results "very serious structural issues that put Saint John at a disadvantage" is difficult to accept when Moncton and Fredericton are subject to the same rules and they are doing just fine-so much so that their regions are now doing much better than ours.
And why/how did the municipal funding system stop us from looking after our water or our streets? And how did it force us into negotiating away genereous pensions or make the pension board make poor investment decisions?
And did the Province do something in Saint John to encourage people to move to suburbia that it didn't do in Moncton or fredericton?
Are these problems really caused by a flawed funding structure or by an addiction to spending and poor choices? If you believe that it's the latter, than money alone will not fix our problems any more than giving an addict more money will solve his addiction.
Moneyt is not why Blackberry can't compete with Apple and Samsung.Blacberry has billions.It's losing the war because the others have better management.
Management -not money or obstacles is the distinguishing factor in the success or failure of any organization be it in the public sector, business or sports.
Look at Business.You remember Nortel,K-mart,Woolco,Eton,and Kodac. Where are they now? Did they not have billions at one time? What did money do for them?
look at Hockey.My Leafs have been and continue to be the most profitable team in the NHL.How successful have they been on the ice?.
When I complain about poor management and lack of leadership I am referring less to present and past Mayors and Councils and more to the "owners"-that elected them.
Elected officials just like the Leafs reflect what the "bosses" want.
Historically, we've been happy electing nice guys to be watch dogs over staff spending rather than visionaries that could take the City to a better place.
We got what we asked for.But is this what we need?

Don't take the criticisms on this forum too personally, most of the commentors are still students or recent grads that try to relate a chapter in a textbook to real life. The fact that you are the only person on this forum who has ever erected "skyscrapers" should speak volumes.

I agree with all of your points. I am surprised at how many elected officials are teachers, accountants or lawyers and none of whom have ever owned their own firm. We lack business minded people leading our city. (Look at the $40 million complex we just built for an overfunded justice department that will bring in essentially 0$ additional investment dollars to the city.)

The old proverb that is takes money to make money is utterly false. It takes a creative mind to find solutions.

These men in council are speechless about the pension deficit because they have spent their lives working for hourly wages and relying on their own decaying retirement savings plans, without any idea what to do if the markets take a dive. Saving for retirement, being stuck in the rat race, and living by the standards of other people's thinking.

I am 26 years old and make more on a monthly basis in passive income than my friends who go to work every day as teachers relying on their government pensions. I started with nothing 3 years ago. And I have done nothing essentially "creative" or "innovative" in my opinion.

JRocca, I would love to see a visionary such as your self elected. If not elected, then a group of like-minded business people should be founded as essentially lobbyists. Men of business with political connections. If they do not wish to run then they should be using their influence to steer this city back on track.

I would like to see the Port City compared to Halifax in the coming decades rather than Fredericton or Moncton.

[mmmatt]

Originally Posted by DoyleRulez

I would like to see the Port City compared to Halifax in the coming decades rather than Fredericton or Moncton.

Well considering that Freddy and Moncton dont even have ports......

[Southpaw78]

Originally Posted by mmmatt

Well considering that Freddy and Moncton dont even have ports......

Great point!!

On another note, anyone hear of potential interest in the Col. Nase development in Grand Bay? A while ago, it as guessed that a new Home Hardware, Tim Horton's, and possibly a new Sobey's would be moving out there...

[RaginRonic]

(This thread is for both Moncton and Saint John, so it is cross-posted)

For a long time, I've been thinking about a comparison between Moncton and Saint John, and now it's time for me to share my thoughts on the 2 cities.

Saint John used to, at one time, be the economic heart of N.B., with Moncton being an also ran. However, that has changed completely.

Why has it changed? Well, it's a few things, really.

1. Saint John placed all it's chips into heavy industry too much, and is now paying for it, with a shrinking population base and declining tax base. Moncton adapted with the times, threw it's chips into various industries, and is staying afloat pretty good.

2. Saint John is only now beginning to deal with it's pollution situation, many years too late to be relevant on the grander scale of things like coastal cleanliness and breathability. Moncton always has dealt with it's pollution issues, and is a pretty clean city.

And 3. Social attitudes in the City of Saint John tend to be way, WAY too pessimistic. It includes things like a severely fractured population, who allowed the more negative people to take control of the city, which include, sadly, the 5 'priority' neighborhoods, where the negatives in those areas figure that things are fine the way they are, because they say so. That attitude can, and has, cost some families dearly, through mental abuse and property loss.

And it has also led to too much drug use in them, with those people trying to run off cops from those neighborhoods, and the negative residents behaving like vigilantes illegally, where they use that bully stance to keep the status quo, which is really hurting the city.

Moncton is a city where people have a more pleasant outlook on life, and that has translated into the greatest advances that any city it's size can attest to. Moncton had both a water filtration plant and sewage treatment system in place, has more relevant construction happening in that city as well. The positivity has also resulted in Moncton gaining, over time, a full outdoor waterpark and indoor amusement park, as well as a greater flexibility in retail stores that is more spread out than in Saint John.

The people of Moncton, largely, seem like they also are busier with their time than those in the Port City are, with more money flowing around Moncton, and people in the Hub City not falling into so much despair.

Frankly, Saint John needs to break out of it's funk. I'm sorry to say that, if it does not, Saint John's economy may collapse within the next 20 years. And the claim that things aren't that bad in Saint John, is deceptive.

And if it means that the negative people have to be thrown out of Saint John, and start their lives elsewhere, so be it.

While the Saint John Sea Dogs did win the Maritimes' 1st ever QMJHL Presidents' and CHL Memorial Cups last year, and broke the Maritime 'glass ceiling' with those leagues, and is to be congratulated for that, I'm sorry to say that, eventually, that will just have been a litmus test to have Moncton become the hockey power in N.B., with the Sea Dogs likely fading from impactful relevancy in the QMJHL and CHL. Moncton will eventually take the torch from Saint John, especially when Moncton gets it's new arena.

In closing, Saint John needs to take a real hard look at itself in the mirror, cut the sad-sack mentality that is hiding behind a really seedy underbelly there, pull itself up, and maybe ask for help from Moncton on how to heal itself. Otherwise, Moncton may be the last man standing in the competition between the 2 cities, with Saint John becoming an unliveable city.

Thanks for reading this.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by RaginRonic

(This thread is for both Moncton and Saint John, so it is cross-posted)

For a long time, I've been thinking about a comparison between Moncton and Saint John, and now it's time for me to share my thoughts on the 2 cities.

Saint John used to, at one time, be the economic heart of N.B., with Moncton being an also ran. However, that has changed completely.

Why has it changed? Well, it's a few things, really.

1. Saint John placed all it's chips into heavy industry too much, and is now paying for it, with a shrinking population base and declining tax base. Moncton adapted with the times, threw it's chips into various industries, and is staying afloat pretty good.

2. Saint John is only now beginning to deal with it's pollution situation, many years too late to be relevant on the grander scale of things like coastal cleanliness and breathability. Moncton always has dealt with it's pollution issues, and is a pretty clean city.

And 3. Social attitudes in the City of Saint John tend to be way, WAY too pessimistic. It includes things like a severely fractured population, who allowed the more negative people to take control of the city, which include, sadly, the 5 'priority' neighborhoods, where the negatives in those areas figure that things are fine the way they are, because they say so. That attitude can, and has, cost some families dearly, through mental abuse and property loss.

And it has also led to too much drug use in them, with those people trying to run off cops from those neighborhoods, and the negative residents behaving like vigilantes illegally, where they use that bully stance to keep the status quo, which is really hurting the city.

Moncton is a city where people have a more pleasant outlook on life, and that has translated into the greatest advances that any city it's size can attest to. Moncton had both a water filtration plant and sewage treatment system in place, has more relevant construction happening in that city as well. The positivity has also resulted in Moncton gaining, over time, a full outdoor waterpark and indoor amusement park, as well as a greater flexibility in retail stores that is more spread out than in Saint John.

The people of Moncton, largely, seem like they also are busier with their time than those in the Port City are, with more money flowing around Moncton, and people in the Hub City not falling into so much despair.

Frankly, Saint John needs to break out of it's funk. I'm sorry to say that, if it does not, Saint John's economy may collapse within the next 20 years. And the claim that things aren't that bad in Saint John, is deceptive.

And if it means that the negative people have to be thrown out of Saint John, and start their lives elsewhere, so be it.

While the Saint John Sea Dogs did win the Maritimes' 1st ever QMJHL Presidents' and CHL Memorial Cups last year, and broke the Maritime 'glass ceiling' with those leagues, and is to be congratulated for that, I'm sorry to say that, eventually, that will just have been a litmus test to have Moncton become the hockey power in N.B., with the Sea Dogs likely fading from impactful relevancy in the QMJHL and CHL. Moncton will eventually take the torch from Saint John, especially when Moncton gets it's new arena.

In closing, Saint John needs to take a real hard look at itself in the mirror, cut the sad-sack mentality that is hiding behind a really seedy underbelly there, pull itself up, and maybe ask for help from Moncton on how to heal itself. Otherwise, Moncton may be the last man standing in the competition between the 2 cities, with Saint John becoming an unliveable city.

Thanks for reading this.

Just a few thoughts on your post:
re point:
1. Saint John's population both proper and metro have grown since 2006. The tax base has in fact increased quite a bit.
2. Saint John has made leaps and bounds in regards to pollution over the last decade. The refinery has spent tens of millions in new equipment to reduce pollution and odours along with the mills installing scrubbers to reduce pollution dramatically. Harbour clean up is well under way and when completed no sewage will make its way into local waterways.
3. Your assessment of "attitudes" in both Saint John and Moncton are gross over generalizations. For Saint John no doubt there are negative people, but in the business community for which I am a part of there is a strong sense of optimism in the city. Saint John for sure has it's challenges, stemming somewhat from the age of the city and unique challenges that brings; however, it is a very livable city - a beautiful city with rich character and heritage and a unique feel all it's own. For the past few years SJ's unemployment rate has been lower than that of Moncton, in fact lower than the national average. It slipped a bit lately but will recover with a huge announcement expected before summer. I do feel we need change at city hall. The city has always been managed for the benefit of employees and not tax payers - this I will concede. Perhaps you are "listening" to the wrong people on SJ because I can assure you we will have a vibrant and bright future. As for Monctonians being "busier" than Saint Johners - how did you quantify that? Just curious.

[ErickMontreal]

Originally Posted by RaginRonic

(This thread is for both Moncton and Saint John, so it is cross-posted)
1. Saint John placed all it's chips into heavy industry too much, and is now paying for it, with a shrinking population base and declining tax base. Moncton adapted with the times, threw it's chips into various industries, and is staying afloat pretty good..

It is obviously true that Saint John still relies on industries but the things are changing through the IT sector. I think the city has to learn not to wait the big boom and defining a true niche for itself where to catch up and grow again. The people flew to the suburbs for various reason inclusing the fog. By the way the city council has not found a way to keep the fog out yet

2. Saint John is only now beginning to deal with it's pollution situation, many years too late to be relevant on the grander scale of things like coastal cleanliness and breathability. Moncton always has dealt with it's pollution issues, and is a pretty clean city.

That's a missleading statements, the Irvings company have invested in new teachnologies in order to minimize the impact on the environnemement for years. I am not saying the situation is perfect but as far as I am concerned they took proper actions to lead their industries to be more sustainable. As Monctonrad said earlier, Saint John is far from what it used to be in that respect.

If you want to be a true critic in term of sustanablities, you ought to take a look in your own backyard, Moncton is leading the porvince in term of sprawl, Moncton applies the concept to the letter.

And 3. Social attitudes in the City of Saint John tend to be way, WAY too pessimistic. It includes things like a severely fractured population, who allowed the more negative people to take control of the city, which include, sadly, the 5 'priority' neighborhoods, where the negatives in those areas figure that things are fine the way they are, because they say so. That attitude can, and has, cost some families dearly, through mental abuse and property loss.

I do not know where to start and to finish. I will simply put it that way, have a walk along St-George street, you may be suprised by what you are going to find.

And it has also led to too much drug use in them, with those people trying to run off cops from those neighborhoods, and the negative residents behaving like vigilantes illegally, where they use that bully stance to keep the status quo, which is really hurting the city.

I am so glad to hear that there is not drug in Moncton, this is a epidemic that is not unique to Saint John.

Moncton had both a water filtration plant and sewage treatment system in place, has more relevant construction happening in that city as well.

The water treatment facility changed the game, things was not that rosy even 10 years ago.

The positivity has also resulted in Moncton gaining, over time, a full outdoor waterpark and indoor amusement park, as well as a greater flexibility in retail stores that is more spread out than in Saint John.

You got things mix up, the positivity has nothing do with the number of entertainment that has set up shop in Moncton, I would point out location, location...and location.

Frankly, Saint John needs to break out of it's funk. I'm sorry to say that, if it does not, Saint John's economy may collapse within the next 20 years. And the claim that things aren't that bad in Saint John, is deceptive.

I am somewhat agree with that but only time will tell if Saint John going to flourish again and rise up to what it used to be. The call center industry is without a shadow of a doubt still a considerable part of the Moncton economy and we both know where its heading.

While the Saint John Sea Dogs did win the Maritimes' 1st ever QMJHL Presidents' and CHL Memorial Cups last year, and broke the Maritime 'glass ceiling' with those leagues, and is to be congratulated for that, I'm sorry to say that, eventually, that will just have been a litmus test to have Moncton become the hockey power in N.B., with the Sea Dogs likely fading from impactful relevancy in the QMJHL and CHL. Moncton will eventually take the torch from Saint John, especially when Moncton gets it's new arena.

What's your point ? Are you implying that a brand new facility will magically make the Wildcats win championships. On the other hand, it would give some life to the Moncton downtown core which is in dire need of some life.

In closing, Saint John needs to take a real hard look at itself in the mirror, cut the sad-sack mentality that is hiding behind a really seedy underbelly there, pull itself up, and maybe ask for help from Moncton on how to heal itself. Otherwise, Moncton may be the last man standing in the competition between the 2 cities, with Saint John becoming an unliveable city.

Maybe you should run for city council since you have the answers for Saint John, we are desperately waiting for you!

In conclusion, Moncton will never have the character, the history as well as the waterfront that Saint John has and Saint John will never has the retail base, the entertainement and the location that Moncton has. Period.

[MonctonRad]

I generally dislike posts that try and compare cities because there is a real danger that replies to the OP will degenerate into flame-fests.

But Erick is correct that Moncton and Saint John are two entirely different cities, with entirely different sets of attributes. They may be economic competitiors but they cannot pretend to be each other. Each city has to make the most of what they are.

I do agree that negativity is poisonous and there is no substitute for the power of positive thinking. Moncton has made a virtue of self promotion. There are many things that Saint John can rightly be proud of as well. Saint John should focus on these and promote these attributes aggressively.

People need to feel good about who they are and where they live. This is what defines a community.

[RR Drummer]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I generally dislike posts that try and compare cities because there is a real danger that replies to the OP will degenerate into flame-fests.

But Erick is correct that Moncton and Saint John are two entirely different cities, with entirely different sets of attributes. They may be economic competitiors but they cannot pretend to be each other. Each city has to make the most of what they are.

I do agree that negativity is poisonous and there is no substitute for the power of positive thinking. Moncton has made a virtue of self promotion. There are many things that Saint John can rightly be proud of as well. Saint John should focus on these and promote these attributes aggressively.

People need to feel good about who they are and where they live. This is what defines a community.

I couldn't agree more MonctonRad.

I won't get into a finger wagging open debate over Moncton vs Saint John or Saint John vs Moncton either. It's all about perception. Aside from a few visits, I knew little about Saint John until I moved here for the first time in 1992. Coming from small town NB I thought Saint John was a huge City full of great Industry. I was non-impressed. It smelt, it was dirty, it was old, run down, and offered little in the way of entertainement. I was from Miramichi and was used to being in and around Moncton but this was nothing like Moncton. I moved back to Miramichi in 1993 and vowed never to return to Saint John to live.

Well as it happens we moved our family back to Saint John in 2002. It's been 10 years now and to be honest I have no desire to live anywhere else. It's home. Yes it has it's problems like any city but it has come full circle for me. Gone is almost all of the pollution smell I hated, (I live in East Saint John less than 1/2 km to Refinery and Pulp Mill), lots of great restaurants, shopping, and vibrant nightlife. Our waterfront has had great changes in landscape and development. The Cruise Industry brings much needed tourism $$ and exposure to our city and region. Harbour Station is a world class venue that brings in top notch entertainment from around the world. And the Sea Dogs are our pride and joy and will continue to be a force with great management and support staff. Yes we still have neighbourhoods with poverty and crime, yes we have drug issues around parts of the city, yes we have water issues, yes we have politicians and management who've made bad choices in spending our tax $$. But I wouldn't trade Saint John in. It's come miles in the last 10 years alone. Yes we have miles to go but things don't happen overnight. I proud to tell people I'm from Saint John and that's what matters to me.

My perception of Saint John has changed over the years. I now agree with former Mayor and MP Elsie Wayne, "Saint John is the best little City in the East".