Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

They spent something like $550 million over 10-11 years ago refurbishing the stadium. Approx. $300 - $350 million was spent creating a retractable roof and hundreds of millions were spent replacing all the seats, refurbishing the suites, constructing new club areas, refurbishing all the concourses, new locker rooms/coaching rooms/media rooms, new lighting/sound system plus other things that don't come to mind at the moment.

Sounds like a new venue within the original shell. When that's possible, it's a good way to go both from a financial and environmental sense.

[Base]

I love the new translucent roofed stadiums they are doing. Brings in natural light but saves on the expense and complexity of a retractable roof. US Bank Stadium and Sofi Stadium are tow that come to mind and obviously are incredibly larger, fancier, and of course more expensive than what we would see here.

Everything has it's trade offs but the all year functionality of those indoor spaces that aren't the dark and dreary boxes of old are a nice option.

[WhipperSnapper]

Wouldn't 35,000 people under a translucent roof in sunny Calgary pose a potential greenhouse effect?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Wouldn't 35,000 people under a translucent roof in sunny Calgary pose a potential greenhouse effect?

Minneapolis' stadium actually looks like a giant greenhouse with fully transparent roof and somehow they manage?!

[WhipperSnapper]

I know the stadium.

through googling,

Apparently they applied a thin foil frit to diminish the greenhouse effect. It still heats up in the summer however, its manageable with targeted air conditioning.

[J.OT13]

NFL has crazy huge and expensive stadiums for 10 games per year. I can't begin to understand.

At least in Canada, we often have soccer in there as well.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

NFL has crazy huge and expensive stadiums for 10 games per year. I can't begin to understand.

At least in Canada, we often have soccer in there as well.

On a dollar spent to actual use ratio, NFL stadiums are by far the worst of major sports offenders of grifting the public for private gain.

Baseball fields at least get used reasonably often and are better vectors for urban renewal, even if they're still pretty dodgy on the financial aspect.

Arenas? Well, one sees why our largest metros didn't need a handout for constructing them. They're just more flexible with events and can be used year-round. Between the NHL/NBA/concerts, they're reasonably well used.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by thewave46

On a dollar spent to actual use ratio, NFL stadiums are by far the worst of major sports offenders of grifting the public for private gain.

Baseball fields at least get used reasonably often and are better vectors for urban renewal, even if they're still pretty dodgy on the financial aspect.

Arenas? Well, one sees why our largest metros didn't need a handout for constructing them. They're just more flexible with events and can be used year-round. Between the NHL/NBA/concerts, they're reasonably well used.

I'd love to see stats showing how many nights per year each arena and stadium is used for.

I think in Ottawa, the Civic Centre and Corel Centre are probably busy about 100 nights per year. TD Stadium maybe 25.

ACC I could imagine 200+ events per year.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by thurmas

At the end just to get old Winnipeg Stadium up to current safety codes was $52 million it no longer made sense to do patch up jobs that costly.

This was part of the reason IWS was completely demo'ed and replaced.

The original plan was to rebuild the older south side stands and renovate the north ones. But stairwells, kitchens, restrooms, other facilities could not easily be brought up to current standards, making it somewhat infeasible to do. So they decided a full demolition was best, offering the opportunity to rotate the stadium and make more use of the entire block (though it meant getting rid of a small stadium adjacent to IWS that was used for soccer and school sports).

And they did tour various places and borrowed ideas for THF. I think they could have been more daring even on the fairly limited budget, but the Ticats seemed to be driving stadium parameters and for them it was all about profit over aesthetics.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by elly63

Another blast from the past (June, 2012)

There was a rumour that the new Hamilton stadium would be a slightly smaller version of Apogee Stadium (University of North Texas cap 30,850/cost $78 Million US) without the upper tier on the endzone that has seats.

I know the PTB from Hamilton went on a stadium tour and gathered some ideas but I don't think it was ever stated if there was a stadium that provided the main inspiration. Now that I look at it the second photo it seems fairly similar to THF or am I wrong.

I don't think you're wrong. There are definitely similarities.

[esquire]

I don't get why Apogee Stadium was designed to have such a big endzone stand relative to the ones along the sidelines. It would have made more sense to me to cut it down to half its size and just add a few rows to the sideline stands.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by esquire

I don't get why Apogee Stadium was designed to have such a big endzone stand relative to the ones along the sidelines. It would have made more sense to me to cut it down to half its size and just add a few rows to the sideline stands.

Not commenting on this particular situation, but often in college sports the sideline stands are for donors, alumni, and relatively expensive ticket holders, while the endzone stands are priced incredibly well (or are free) for students. Since students are rowdy, best to keep them isolated!

[Hackslack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

On a dollar spent to actual use ratio, NFL stadiums are by far the worst of major sports offenders of grifting the public for private gain.

Baseball fields at least get used reasonably often and are better vectors for urban renewal, even if they're still pretty dodgy on the financial aspect.

Arenas? Well, one sees why our largest metros didn't need a handout for constructing them. They're just more flexible with events and can be used year-round. Between the NHL/NBA/concerts, they're reasonably well used.

Would be interesting to see, I wonder if those NFL stadiums generate more revenue from 8 regular season games, than an NHL arena in Canada over 41 regular season games.

Aside from Buffalo, do NFL teams get handouts from various levels of government?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

Aside from Buffalo, do NFL teams get handouts from various levels of government?

Glad you asked!

The Tenneessee Titans are currently in the process of looking at a new stadium, with two important features that i've mentioned here previously - it'll be totally domed, and it'll be a capacity decrease from Nissan Stadium (69,143 -> 60,000).

The stadium, clocked at north of $2B(!), will be financed as follows:

• $840M from team
• $500M from State of Tenneessee
• $760M from revenue bonds to be repaid by seat licences and taxes, along with a new 1% hotel/motel tax

Team agrees to pay final $30M on remaining bonds at Nissan and waives $32M outstanding owed to the city for Nissan Stadium maintenance over the past four years.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timnewc...h=2940f65e5027



So yes. Handouts in the US for professional stadiums are always generally pretty egregious, although Canadian cities have gotten into that act more recently.

[Berklon]

The Titan's stadium opened in 1999 - so it's going to be yet another stadium that has a relatively short life.

I like the recent trend where the exterior aesthetic goes beyond the look of a traditional stadium.
The last 4 were like that - Minnesota, Atlanta, Las Vegas and LA. It looks like they'll continue that with Tennessee. They all have a roof as well.

[esquire]

It's interesting how some NFL venues like the Superdome just keep going and going while others are replaced on the 25-year plan.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

This was part of the reason IWS was completely demo'ed and replaced.

The original plan was to rebuild the older south side stands and renovate the north ones. But stairwells, kitchens, restrooms, other facilities could not easily be brought up to current standards, making it somewhat infeasible to do. So they decided a full demolition was best, offering the opportunity to rotate the stadium and make more use of the entire block (though it meant getting rid of a small stadium adjacent to IWS that was used for soccer and school sports).

And they did tour various places and borrowed ideas for THF. I think they could have been more daring even on the fairly limited budget, but the Ticats seemed to be driving stadium parameters and for them it was all about profit over aesthetics.

Blast from the past

Mitchell answers questions
Steve Milton theSpec.com September 1 2011

At first blush, it all seems counterintuitive.

How can building new stands on the north side of Ivor Wynne Stadium not cost more than renovating the current ones?

And how can the significantly reduced seating capacity — from the original 25,000 seats to a reported 22,500 — not negatively impact the Hamilton Tiger-Cats’ bottom line?

Those were among the nagging questions after it was revealed last week that plans for the Pan Am Stadium on the current site of Ivor Wynne now call for the entire north stands to be torn down and rebuilt, instead of being refurbished atop the current infrastructure.

“This is absolutely and positively the most cost-efficient and responsible decision,” Ticat president Scott Mitchell answered Wednesday. “This isn’t a good thing, it’s a great thing.”

By agreeing to the reduced seat inventory, the Ticats made a major concession to Infrastructure Ontario to keep construction costs at the original estimate.

And, Mitchell says, potential builders will welcome the idea of constructing the north stands from the ground up, rather than trying to work around existing flaws, many of which are major.

“That’s 100 per cent accurate,” Mitchell said. “This creates cost certainty in the construction phase. You never know what you’re going to find out when you renovate. It might have involved all kinds of (capital) expense that wasn’t anticipated. And this prohibits the city from potentially having to spend tens of millions of dollars in maintenance of the north stands in the next few years.”

Additionally, having renovated north stands with uncomfortable bench seating and the same washroom and concession facilities as in the past would have meant that the Cats, and the city, were going to operate, in effect, two different facilities.

“What was clearly emerging was a have-versus-have-not scenario on the two sides of the stadium,” he said. “And that’s not conducive to effective cost management or a good in-stadium experience.”

The Tiger-Cats need to derive $10 million per year, or roughly $1 million per game, from ticket sales. Mitchell, bound by a confidentiality clause, would not comment on the exact capacity of the new stadium. But assuming the 22,500 figure is accurate, at an average $50 per ticket, the Cats will cover the $10 million as long as they sell out most games.

And a smaller stadium actually helps dramatically with that. Increasing the demand for tickets because there is a limited supply should translate into more season ticket holders than the current number, estimated to be slightly under 15,000. The Chicago Cubs and Boston Red Sox have always operated that way because of their old, small stadiums, but in 1990 the Baltimore Orioles became the first professional sports team to deliberately build a new stadium smaller than their old one. That forces fans to buy season’s tickets for fear that they won’t be able to get the tickets for games they really want. Then, weather and the competitive state of the team don’t affect sales as profoundly. The Montreal Alouettes had the same situation with the 20,000-seat Molson Stadium, and sold out every game for years.

The Ticats average between 23,000 and 24,000 spectators per game but about 20 per cent of them enjoy complimentary tickets, significantly lower than the figure from three years ago but still nearly double the industry standard. Tightening up on contra (tickets instead of cash, paid for services) and special group sales will allow the Cats to realize full income from a far greater percentage of the seats.

“So the biggest casualty in the capacity reduction will be those contra deals and big corporate buys,” Mitchell said.

The break-even point for most CFL teams is believed to be about $15 million in total annual income. With recent huge increases in TV viewership, broadcast revenues are expected to double or triple in the next couple of years, taking a big bite out of the $5 million income required beyond ticket sales. While the number of high-rent corporate boxes and club seats slated for the new stadium have not been revealed, there are going to be at least twice as many as there are now, adding more income potential to the Cats’ balance sheet.

“And clearly, we’ll have major increased revenue from concessions and merchandising because of an enhanced stadium experience,” Mitchell says. “It will also be a better experience for our corporate partners.”

The Ticats plan to cap individual season ticket sales at between 17,000 and 18,000. Season’s tickets prices for 2011 range from $14 per game in the end zone to $160 for the box seats at midfield. Those prices are expected to rise by two per cent next year.

But the team announced Wednesday that season’s tickets for 2012, the last season at Ivor Wynne, would cost the same as tickets for 2014, the first season in the new stadium.

“We wanted to nip in the bud all the talk that ‘I won’t be able to go to the new stadium because I can’t afford it,’” Mitchell explained.

Mitchell also said that the $1.3 million rent the Cats will pay the city in the new stadium will be the highest in the CFL and that the more income the club makes, the more the city will make on their rake-off of the profit, over and above the rental agreement.

And, he says, the seating capacity on opening day doesn’t have to remain that way. He wouldn’t comment directly, but the configuration of the new stadium has to include room for enough temporary seating to reach the 40,000 minimum required to play host to a Grey Cup Game.

“Infrastructure Ontario will deliver a great stadium, but obviously there’d be nothing stopping us, as far as far as post-Pan Am Games go, from adding more seating ourselves.”

[elly63]

Follow up to blast from the past (story has been edited down)

Inside the CFL: Two Hamilton traditions
Ted Michaels Hamilton, ON (Sports Network) canada.com July 16, 2013

When you hear Heinz Field, you think of Pittsburgh.

When you hear Coors Field, you think of Denver.

When you hear Ford Field, you think of Detroit.

Starting in 2014, when you hear Tim Hortons Field, you'll think of Hamilton, Ontario.

And, when you think about it more, you'll understand why it's the perfect name.

Last Friday afternoon, it was officially announced that Hamilton's new stadium will be called Tim Hortons Field.

It's a 10-year naming right deal, which will provide Tim Hortons with unprecedented branding, activation and in-stadium product integration opportunities.

The coffee and donut chain, will also team up with the Tiger-Cats to donate $1 million to the charitable efforts of the Tim Horton Children's Foundation and the Tiger-Cats' Play Action minor football development program.

The new $145.7-million, state-of-the-art facility is being built on the same spot where the Hamilton Tiger-Cats' long-time venue, Ivor Wynne Stadium, used to stand.

Ivor Wynne Stadium, which was previously called Civic Stadium, held a prominent place in Hamiltonians hearts, with its close proximity to the field and no-frills amenities. It was torn down at the end of the 2012 CFL season.

The new stadium will be home of the soccer competition for the 2015 Pan American Games, but is slated to open next summer, in time for the 2014 CFL season.

The facility will have permanent seating for 22,500 spectators with the ability to be expanded to 40,000 seats for major events, including the Grey Cup.

That's why this partnership makes sense.

The Tiger-Cats will get to play in a brand new facility, which is being funded by a city contribution of $54.3 million, $22.3 million from the province of Ontario, and the federal government, which will pay the remaining $69.1 million.

While the actual total of the agreement was not publicized, sources tell Inside the CFL that the naming rights were purchased for between $10 million and $15 million.

In addition, as was stated in a memorandum of agreement from February 2011, the Tiger-Cats will pay the city $1.2 million per year for 20 years in exchange for use of the stadium, including $450,000 in rent and $750,000 per season.

"We received significant feedback from our fans during the stadium design and programming phases, through an extensive survey program," Matt Afinec, Senior Vice President, New Stadium Development, told Inside the CFL. "The common theme was unanimous. Tiger-Cats fans wanted the stadium to include features that enhance their live viewing experience, including food and beverage access and quality, easier washroom access, technology which includes a videoboard, LCD TVs in concourses, modern sound and lighting systems and so on, while at the same time maintaining the best sightlines for CFL football anywhere in Canada."

Plans for a brand new stadium don't happen overnight. Afinec noted that Tim Hortons Field will be unique to Hamilton, but at the same time will be loosely modeled on other stadiums.

"We visited a number of stadiums and arenas across North America to gather best practices in new venues. This includes facilities that were larger in capacity and had far greater construction budgets relative to what was going to be delivered in Hamilton. However, we felt that great ideas rooted in enhancing the live viewing experience were transferable and could be customized to the needs of our local market, venue and construction budget. For example, we ultimately implemented the principle of two concepts from Cowboys Stadium in Arlington, Texas. The end zone patio at Tim Hortons Field is comparable in theme to the common areas in the end zones at Cowboys Stadium."

The end zone patio has a sports bar theme. It could be the most interesting feature of the new building, and in essence, become party central.

"We mean the elements that make a great sports bar -- comfortable seating, great food, not being constrained to a stadium seat, televisions, music and friends -- but the incredibly unique feature that you're in the end zone of a football field," Afinec pointed out. "The North End Zone patio deck, which is two-tiered, and elevated approximately five feet from the field of play, will hold about 400 people and will span the width of the field."

Ivor Wynne Stadium had something that no other CFL stadium had... the steps.

The Tiger-Cats would come out of their dressing room, down a tunnel and take the 14 steps up to the playing surface. Tim Hortons Field will have another feature new to the CFL... the walk.

"Another concept we adapted from Dallas, which is also a feature at MetLife Stadium in New Jersey, was that of the team taking the field in front of premium Club holders on field level. Tim Hortons Field will have an exclusive club for a maximum of 150 patrons, who will sit on the 55-yard line in the bowl and have access to a private lounge underneath the west side of the building. Adjacent to where this lounge is located is the vast walkway the players will use to go from the locker room to the center tunnel to take the field. Members can stand in that walkway and have an incredibly unique experience watching the players take the field."

Eighty percent of the seats at Tim Hortons Field are between the goal lines with a minimum seat width of 21 inches, with larger seats in the club and suite sections. By way of comparison, the Rogers Centre in Toronto has seats that are 19 inches wide. Fans will also rave about the new video scoreboard, which is almost 25 percent larger than the one that was seen at Ivor Wynne Stadium.

There's a total of 1,000 club seats with three themed lounges, including the Tiger-Cat Wall of Honor Club featuring former Tiger-Cat greats and the Canadian Football Hall of Fame Club.

Add in six elevators and fully accessible seating throughout the stadium at all price points and it appears Hamiltonians should be excited by the new facility, which is being built by a consortium of companies under the name Ontario Sports Solutions.

Currently, the stadium construction is 10 percent ahead of schedule and is on budget.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

It's interesting how some NFL venues like the Superdome just keep going and going while others are replaced on the 25-year plan.

Lambeau Field is more than 60 years old. Sure, it is not the same as when it opened, but to replace it would seem to be sacrilege.

It's not like downtown location matters as much for the NFL unlike baseball. There's no 'inferior multi-purpose stadium' excuse anymore (AFAIK) for stadium replacement, so I don't know what the excuse is for the 25-year replacement cycle. Or why taxpayers keep buying it.

Baseball is even weirder. Fenway Park and Wrigley Field are, what, more than 100 years old? Even Dodger Stadium was built in the 1960s and works great today. Then you have places like Atlanta. Bizarre.

At least most current NHL rinks/stadiums in this country are pretty well used until they're used up. About the only sore thumb that sticks out on that metric is Ottawa, but that's a location problem that would have worked better in the core of the city. And Calgary...well...we'll see if that replacement ever happens given the ongoing drama.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Sounds like a new venue within the original shell. When that's possible, it's a good way to go both from a financial and environmental sense.

Given how much they spent, I think they were hoping the BC Lions, and to a lesser extend the Whitecaps, would draw better than they do, frequently requiring the opening of the upper deck. With that said, I think someone involved with the project stated that a brand new BC Place would cost in the neighbourhood of $1 billion. I imagine in the present that would be in excess of $1.5 billion and probably closer to $2 billion.