The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[osmo]

The reality is that half baked political peddling will end up biting Toronto in the end. Both SmartTrack and the Scarb-Subway are not real or viable ideas and both will end up eating each others ridership. The data already suggests that the Scarb-Subway will serve less people per KM then the white elephant Sheppard Subway and will essentially be a glorified and costly shuttle from a shopping mall to Kennedy. Both Smart-Track and the Scab-Way depend on trip generations from Markahm to have any validity and both won't be able to exist as one will be favored over the other.

So what will Tory have to do? He will have to save face on Smart-Track and adjust the Scarb-Way, or take a egg on the face for his term mandate project.

The replacement to LRT for the RT would of been close to finished now with the northern LRT stretch already running to provide relief. As many oddities Transit City (TC) has, it was the most realistic plan Toronto had in a gone era before the public books exploded. None of the issues TC have been figured out by any new plans either so it shows it wasn't all just TC specific.

All the while downtown chokes on itself with proposal after proposal on King West, that gets ridership far above Sheppard and half of the Bloor-Danforth line. The TTC critically needs the DRL or the downtown rapid network will choke on itself during rush hour. Also of critical importance a extension westward of Sheppard to Wilson so the TTC can have full network access to Wilson yard, this gives the ability for the TTC to run near 24-hr service on the classic section of the line (and its most used) from Elglinton to Union.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The contrast between Ottawa's two lines is interesting. On the one hand you have the Confederation Line which is very high end (essentially a fully fledged metro line), and on the other hand, the patchwork ramshackle Trillium Line.

On this, I totally agree

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The contrast between Ottawa's two lines is interesting. On the one hand you have the Confederation Line which is very high end (essentially a fully fledged metro line), and on the other hand, the patchwork ramshackle Trillium Line.

When the original N-S LRT line was conceived, they were predicting daily ridership of 41,000 by 2021. With the route truncated substantially at both ends, and double tracking at some unknown date in the distant future, it is unlikely that half that ridership will be achieved when Phase 2 opens in 2023. Beyond 2023, ridership will continue to bleed to a competing busway else there will be a total rebellion from southend transit riders that would have 2 transfers added to their daily commute. The original plan would have had the busway relegated to secondary status as a mainly a cross-town route.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by osmo

The reality is that half baked political peddling will end up biting Toronto in the end. Both SmartTrack and the Scarb-Subway are not real or viable ideas and both will end up eating each others ridership. The data already suggests that the Scarb-Subway will serve less people per KM then the white elephant Sheppard Subway and will essentially be a glorified and costly shuttle from a shopping mall to Kennedy. Both Smart-Track and the Scab-Way depend on trip generations from Markahm to have any validity and both won't be able to exist as one will be favored over the other.

So what will Tory have to do? He will have to save face on Smart-Track and adjust the Scarb-Way, or take a egg on the face for his term mandate project.

The replacement to LRT for the RT would of been close to finished now with the northern LRT stretch already running to provide relief. As many oddities Transit City (TC) has, it was the most realistic plan Toronto had in a gone era before the public books exploded. None of the issues TC have been figured out by any new plans either so it shows it wasn't all just TC specific.

All the while downtown chokes on itself with proposal after proposal on King West, that gets ridership far above Sheppard and half of the Bloor-Danforth line. The TTC critically needs the DRL or the downtown rapid network will choke on itself during rush hour. Also of critical importance a extension westward of Sheppard to Wilson so the TTC can have full network access to Wilson yard, this gives the ability for the TTC to run near 24-hr service on the classic section of the line (and its most used) from Elglinton to Union.

I don't pretend to be an expert on Toronto transit needs, however, I am familiar with the city and I have followed the debates.

It seems to me that in order to get plans implemented, you need substantial political support. The DRL has failed to achieve that.

Transit City has always had very mixed support amongst the public and at the political level because of its limits in providing real improved service on long haul routes.

Rather than fumbling back and forth, if something is to be actually completed, there needs to be a plan that actually improves service and then go with it.

The Scarborough RT was always an orphan line creating extra transfers. It seems to me that people will receive real improvement in service by connecting this line to the rest of the rapid transit network and the best connection would be to the Bloor-Danforth subway. I know there is a considerable cost, however, it has achieved the political support needed.

The Smart Tracks plan as an improvement of Go RER also will deliver better service to many people with fast and frequent service to Union Station from many parts of the city and greater Toronto. This should be a new ridership generator and those people will not be using Yonge-Spadina subway. Whether Smart Tracks will redirect any significant ridership away from the Yonge-Spadina subway, you will have a better idea of that.

The issue with DRL is its extreme cost. A project of this nature will require enormous political support to get off the ground and that means overwhelming support from the public. Until that happens, it won't be built and every other band aid solution will take place first.

Here in Ottawa, we faced exactly the same situation and our downtown subway is now being built after decades of delay. Strangely, it took a very green politician to finally convince City Council of its need. He was otherwise a pretty incompetent mayor. One day, the right politician will come along in Toronto and the DRL will finally be built. In meantime, you need to allow other transit improvements to take place. In the long-run, this will end up supporting the construction of the DRL as ridership growth will increasingly demonstrate its need.

[bikegypsy]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The city can't afford to double track it, so they would rather implement something that is never going to work well to prove that it is doing something to serve the south sector of the city. In other words, to pacify voters in the affected wards. The thought of adding an airport spur in this mix is absolutely scary.

You can bet your bottom dollar that the whole line will shut down again to retrofit stations for the now planned two car trains and to do a tad more double tracking at one proposed station (Gladstone).

The whole setup is so fragile that service shutdowns are inevitable with any significant attempts to improve the line. It has already happened several times.

Ottawa will forever pay for that 2006 decision as millions keep getting pumped into an inadequate setup that will always underperform in terms of frequency and ridership. They say they can achieve 10 minute frequency when they can't do it now and they are adding stations. We will be lucky if they can even maintain the current 12 minute frequency when Phase 2 opens.

The latest attempt to save more money on this already inadequate line is to get permission to have level crossings on Phase 2.

Although I agree with you that it's a ugly patchwork project marred in technical issues, double tracking the line is obviously inevitable a some point in time and this could be done with no or little down time in its current format. But I'm hoping that politicians will soon have a last minute pang of reason - as we are still at the planning stage of phase 2 - and opt to double track and electrify the line as well as extend it to Gatineau. What a wasted opportunity that one last bit is.

[SkahHigh]

Like many said, some politicians would rather expand a line than improve the actual system so citizens can say "This politician is great, he brought the O-Train to our neighborhood".

I just find it sucks for Ottawa to have a new light rail network that is half great, half average...

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by osmo

The replacement to LRT for the RT would of been close to finished now with the northern LRT stretch already running to provide relief. As many oddities Transit City (TC) has, it was the most realistic plan Toronto had in a gone era before the public books exploded. None of the issues TC have been figured out by any new plans either so it shows it wasn't all just TC specific.

All the while downtown chokes on itself with proposal after proposal on King West, that gets ridership far above Sheppard and half of the Bloor-Danforth line. The TTC critically needs the DRL or the downtown rapid network will choke on itself during rush hour. Also of critical importance a extension westward of Sheppard to Wilson so the TTC can have full network access to Wilson yard, this gives the ability for the TTC to run near 24-hr service on the classic section of the line (and its most used) from Elglinton to Union.

TC neglected downtown too. It was suburban focused and punted down the DRL. Granted it provided real rapid transit access to huge swaths of suburban territory.... (I think something like 40% of the entire population of the 416 would have been within a 10 minute walk of an LRT or subway, or something crazy high like that) which would have been massively transformational... but still, neglected the downtown capacity issue.

As for the Wilson yard issue and getting trains 24 hrs, I feel like there's a much cheaper operational solution to that problem than building a multi-billion dollar subway extension.

[WhipperSnapper]

TC was about getting the most bang for limited bucks. This is something subway enthusiasts failed to understand. King Street makes the most sense for the DRL but, it will also be ridiculously expensive taking up most of TC's budget.

[SkahHigh]

Nice shot of an AMT train near Montreal West

Around the curve by Michael Berry, sur Flickr

[SteelTown]

Looks like GO Transit is doing a test run at the new West Harbour GO Station


Kyle Ford
https://twitter.com/Kyle_4D/status/615645204662456320/photo/1

[Doady]

GO built a station at that location without even knowing if a train could even reach it? Wow. No wonder why so much public funds are wasted.

[SkahHigh]

Ughhh the new GO design (with Metrolinx colors) is so ugly... I like green but I preferred the more vibrant one.

[matt602]

Originally Posted by Doady

GO built a station at that location without even knowing if a train could even reach it? Wow. No wonder why so much public funds are wasted.

The test run is done to verify platform clearances/gap sizing and to familiarize crews with the station signals, tracks, sight lines, etc. West Harbour will be a terminus station alongside a pretty busy mainline until Stoney Creek station is completed in 2019, so there's a bit of extra training involved than most normal stations.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

TC neglected downtown too. It was suburban focused and punted down the DRL. Granted it provided real rapid transit access to huge swaths of suburban territory...

No, it did not provide "real rapid transit" access to huge swaths of suburban territory.

How is a LRT line which operates at almost the same speed as the local bus it replaces, providing "real rapid transit"?

Nothing about TC was rapid, except the underground portions.

Telling someone in suburban Toronto they would have gotten rapid transit is a lie. Unless you think a 1h30min trip from north east Scarborough to downtown, only taking 1h27min with TC is rapid transit?????????????

[Doady]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

TC was about getting the most bang for limited bucks. This is something subway enthusiasts failed to understand. King Street makes the most sense for the DRL but, it will also be ridiculously expensive taking up most of TC's budget.

If Toronto really wants most bang for the buck, they should build BRT instead of LRT.

[miketoronto]

Here is a question I sometimes think about when I am running from one commitment to another via transit.

Why do so many of us choose to spend so much time on transit? The vast majority of transit riders on Canadian transit systems are generally "choice riders" who could have used a car for the trip, or choose not to own a car. But transit riders on average spend double the amount of time to travel the same distance as car drivers do.

My trips today:

Trip 1: By car, 28 minutes. By transit, 70 minutes.
Trip 2: By car, 25 minutes. By transit, 60 minutes.
Trip 3: By car, 20 minutes. By transit, 55 minutes.

Even in sections of the city were transit service is great, it often takes much longer by transit.

I know this is something planners have to work on. But it never seems planners win the travel time issue much with transit. No matter what is done, transit is slow for most trips.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

Ughhh the new GO design (with Metrolinx colors) is so ugly... I like green but I preferred the more vibrant one.

Initially I felt the same way, but the new colour scheme has grown on me. I think once more cars are converted over, it will look great. Right now the sporadic "new" cars look out of place with the old.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by Doady

GO built a station at that location without even knowing if a train could even reach it? Wow. No wonder why so much public funds are wasted.

Kind of a silly question when the tracks have been there since the 1800s, and GO has been running trains to Niagara in the summer for some time now.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Doady

If Toronto really wants most bang for the buck, they should build BRT instead of LRT.

If you find a manufacturer of robotic buses, sure.

[Nouvellecosse]

"BRT" doesn't really mean anything without a lot more clarification. It can be as little as a few bus lanes and limited stops, making it super cheap but in no way comparable to a rail transit system. Full scale BRT like ones in places like in Bangkok and parts of Brazil is the best bang for the buck when comparing just the start up cost. But when comparing the long term costs including energy and maintenance it isn't. It's popular in poorer countries since they simply can't generate the initial start up capital.