Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[memememe76]

Seattle closed the light rail system during the Weekend so I didn't get to ride it.

What?!? Why?

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Kisai

I was in Seattle over the weekend and "lead-footed" seemed to be the rule for their Bus drivers, also every bus seemed to feel like the suspension was in need of repair. Compared to the CMBC buses, the buses used by Translink are more comfortable rides. Seattle closed the light rail system during the Weekend so I didn't get to ride it.

In Metro Vancouver, I will prefer the train before I will take a bus. Because the service level is so good with the Skytrain/Canada Line, it's actually more time-efficient to transfer at Waterfront or Grandville/City-Hall, or at Broadway/Commercial than it is to take a shorter bus route that doesn't go partly or completely downtown first.

The trick to getting people to use Transit, is to intentionally take transit when they're still kids, and leave the car at home as much as possible. I grew up somewhere where there simply was no bus service, so when I moved to some place that had bus service I was actually unsure how to navigate the bus system and didn't know that you could just ask (any) Bus driver. When I moved to Vancouver, I didn't even bring a car. So I made every decision about where to live and shop based around "how far from the Skytrain"

I kind of feel the same way. My parents pretty much stopped giving me rides anywhere when I was around 12. Ever since then, I've bussed to just about everywhere. The fact that I've been bussing for so long just makes me feel like it's normal, as opposed to other people who complain about how long it takes or how bumpy the ride is. Taking transit doesn't seem that bad to me, it's being driven that feels like an upgrade from normal, not bussing that feels like a downgrade from normal. If anything, once I started driving myself I liked transit even more. Being able to text and just walk off a bus is a lot more convenient to me than circling crowded parking lots.

So from my own experiences, I think it's important to get young people on transit early. Make it feel normal. Too many people grow up barely taking transit at all. That's why the U Pass program is such a great idea. It allows transit to at least be considered as an option on some trips, as opposed to just driving everywhere because that's what you're used to.

[Infrequent Poster]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I kind of feel the same way. My parents pretty much stopped giving me rides anywhere when I was around 12. Ever since then, I've bussed to just about everywhere. The fact that I've been bussing for so long just makes me feel like it's normal, as opposed to other people who complain about how long it takes or how bumpy the ride is. Taking transit doesn't seem that bad to me, it's being driven that feels like an upgrade from normal, not bussing that feels like a downgrade from normal. If anything, once I started driving myself I liked transit even more. Being able to text and just walk off a bus is a lot more convenient to me than circling crowded parking lots.

So from my own experiences, I think it's important to get young people on transit early. Make it feel normal. Too many people grow up barely taking transit at all. That's why the U Pass program is such a great idea. It allows transit to at least be considered as an option on some trips, as opposed to just driving everywhere because that's what you're used to.

Still like my own vehicle better. Can have a nice big spread of food laid out. Feeling tired? Pull into a parking lot kick the seat back catch some shut eye. Decide you actually need to change your plans? Change directions and go exactly where you need to go. The advantageous are numerous.

I'm mostly joking....

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Infrequent Poster

Still like my own vehicle better. Can have a nice big spread of food laid out. Feeling tired? Pull into a parking lot kick the seat back catch some shut eye. Decide you actually need to change your plans? Change directions and go exactly where you need to go. The advantageous are numerous.

I'm mostly joking....

There are obviously huge benefits and conveniences associated with a car, but I would argue the same for transit. Transit's benefits are just less obvious. Transit will never be able to compete with the ability to go anywhere on a moment's notice. But like I said, once I got used to it, there's a lot I miss about transit when I drive.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

There are obviously huge benefits and conveniences associated with a car, but I would argue the same for transit. Transit's benefits are just less obvious.

I learned to read Japanese by practicing with Kanji flash cards while commuting on transit. My experience is that time spent driving is basically wasted while time spent on transit can be put to productive use.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I learned to read Japanese by practicing with Kanji flash cards while commuting on transit. My experience is that time spent driving is basically wasted while time spent on transit can be put to productive use.

That's definitely one of them. It takes me 1.5 hours each way to go to UBC, so 3 hours a day commuting total. I spend that time doing my readings, reviewing notes or even catching up on sleep. While a car would save me a lot of time, it would probably be a 1.5–2 hour round trip, so that's still 1.5–2 hours that would be wasted. It might seem like you waste your time just going from place to place, but if you're smart you can actually get more out of your day this way.

[WarrenC12]

When I discuss transit vs. driving with people, I find that many don't truly estimate the costs of owning and operating a car. They seem to look at the cost of a transit fare vs. filling up with gas, which couldn't be a worse comparison.

The convenience of having a car is undeniable, but how much is that worth? $5k/yr? $10k? What else could you be doing with that money?

With all of the car sharing options we have, and the ability to rent cars for longer periods of time, there isn't a lot of financial justification for owning a car in the city of Vancouver, unless you're in the 1%er range. Top 1% in Canada cutoff is $191k. Top 10% is $80k. I would suggest even at $80k it's not such an obvious choice to have a car...

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

With all of the car sharing options we have, and the ability to rent cars for longer periods of time, there isn't a lot of financial justification for owning a car in the city of Vancouver, unless you're in the 1%er range. Top 1% in Canada cutoff is $191k. Top 10% is $80k. I would suggest even at $80k it's not such an obvious choice to have a car...

There's nothing logical about it, but the incremental cost seems to outweigh almost all the other considerations, at least for me. Despite the fact that I should and do know better.

For reasons that I won't bother enumerating I lost the use of my vehicle for several months starting last fall. "Great", I said, "this is my big excuse to try out car sharing". It seemed like a natural, since literally most of my trips are by bike anyway.

So I signed up for Car2Go because of its convenience. Now for the number and length of vehicle trips I make the overall cost is less than buying a car outright and paying for the insurance and gas. I know that. But I found that with the "meter running" as I drove the car I was a lot more anxious about completing my trip quickly. And I had a lot of reluctance to make trips in the first place because of the high incremental cost.

Long story short, I only lasted a couple of months before going out and buying a used Prius C. It doesn't make financial sense, but I can afford it (despite making nowhere near $80K) and it the convenience and freedom from driving angst just outweighs those other factors for me.

I still do more trips by bike than by car. But for trips I make that require a car it's just so much less hassle and worry to have my own car that it's worth the extra cost to me.

[Procrastinational]

Convenience aside, driving is fun. Being crammed into transit like sardines and being surrounded by sick, coughing people or gritty, smelly people is anything but.

In a car you have your personal space, peace and quiet, and you can listen to your tunes and sing along if you wish.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Procrastinational

Convenience aside, driving is fun. Being crammed into transit like sardines and being surrounded by sick, coughing people or gritty, smelly people is anything but.

In a car you have your personal space, peace and quiet, and you can listen to your tunes and sing along if you wish.

I agree to a point, but commuting via car in traffic is pretty annoying too. I like to zone-out on transit and wake up at my destination.

[Procrastinational]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I agree to a point, but commuting via car in traffic is pretty annoying too. I like to zone-out on transit and wake up at my destination.

There's definitely a tipping point towards transit if traffic is bad enough. But for anything up to moderate traffic, commuting via car is much more pleasant.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

When I discuss transit vs. driving with people, I find that many don't truly estimate the costs of owning and operating a car. They seem to look at the cost of a transit fare vs. filling up with gas, which couldn't be a worse comparison.

The convenience of having a car is undeniable, but how much is that worth? $5k/yr? $10k? What else could you be doing with that money?

With all of the car sharing options we have, and the ability to rent cars for longer periods of time, there isn't a lot of financial justification for owning a car in the city of Vancouver, unless you're in the 1%er range. Top 1% in Canada cutoff is $191k. Top 10% is $80k. I would suggest even at $80k it's not such an obvious choice to have a car...

While this is all true, it's not a great argument given that most people already have cars. Few people are in the position where they could simply sell their car. It's difficult to get people to completely ditch their car, but there is no reason that people can't make trips by both car and transit depending on the situation. Like I said above, transit just isn't seen as an option because people aren't used to taking it.

Going downtown for example, there is no reason to drive there. Even in far away areas like South Delta and Langley, there are park and rides available at SkyTrain stations that are easily accessible by highway, and they cost a lot less than parking downtown does, even when factoring in transit fares. What I'm trying to say is that it's not really possible, or fair, to convince people to stop driving just because it's cheaper. However, people should be encouraged to start making some of their trips by transit when these trips are viable and competitive with the car.

Originally Posted by Procrastinational

Convenience aside, driving is fun. Being crammed into transit like sardines and being surrounded by sick, coughing people or gritty, smelly people is anything but.

In a car you have your personal space, peace and quiet, and you can listen to your tunes and sing along if you wish.

You're stereotyping people that take transit. They're not smelly or dirty. They're normal people, the same ones you stand crammed in a line with at Tim Hortons once you get wherever you're going.

And with your other points, that's subjective. "Driving is more pleasant than transit" is not a fact for everybody, for many reasons outlined by others here.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by memememe76

What?!? Why?

Upgrades to the tunnelled section to support the UW extension.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

While this is all true, it's not a great argument given that most people already have cars. Few people are in the position where they could simply sell their car. It's difficult to get people to completely ditch their car, but there is no reason that people can't make trips by both car and transit depending on the situation. Like I said above, transit just isn't seen as an option because people aren't used to taking it.

I think a lot of it has to do with sunk costs on a depreciating asset.

If your car costs 20,000, and you're paying for it over 5 years, you're ultimately sinking around 30,000$ on the price of the car plus maintenance, insurance and fuel costs. If you buy a used car outright (no loans), then the depreciating value of the car is much less of a concern... But paying monthly insurance costs still are.

So ultimately it's the maintenance/fuel cost that is the justification to take transit or not. If a car/motorcycle/moped is dirt cheap to insure, and the fuel costs are low, then it's more justified to use instead of the bus. But nothing beats the Skytrain as long as your starting point and end point are within a reasonable walk.

People who need to drive as part of the job (eg delivery vehicles) obviously aren't going to use transit. But the vast majority of "drive to work and park it" situations can be replaced with transit if only people were willing to forgo the "second/third car"

[Metro-One]

Huge supporter of public transit, use it all the time (along with biking) but I must also defnd the idea of owning a car.

The freedom to go anywhere at any time is massive, especially for those with outdoor adventure hobbies (or other hobbies / interests / work that require the ability to access inconvenient locations and or carry heavy / awkward equipment).

When living in BC from May to October I would frequently go on road trips to the interior and go hiking. I was also a freelance videographer filming weddings and company promotional videos, public transit could never fulfill my needs. Yes I could rent cars, but that still requires having to take extra time / planning to actually obtain and return such vehicles frequently (AKA a big pain in the ass).

To add to that your own car already has your personalized comforts ready (it is a home base).

Also, I really enjoy driving, and I really enjoy driving standard.

Finally just like owning a shinny 21 gear ultra fast and shiny top of the line bike, there is a romance associated with owing your own nice car.

Hence even in Japan, the nation with the world's best train network, car ownership is still within the top 10 nations.

[Jebby]

This thread has gone very off topic...

[Procrastinational]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Also, I really enjoy driving, and I really enjoy driving standard.

I'd take transit over driving an automatic car any day. There is just something so satisfying about rowing through the gears.

Originally Posted by GlassCity

You're stereotyping people that take transit. They're not smelly or dirty. They're normal people, the same ones you stand crammed in a line with at Tim Hortons once you get wherever you're going.

I'm not stereotyping transit riders. If you take a random sample of 60 people from any demographic, chances are at least a few are going to have poor hygiene standards. I don't enjoy being in close proximity to that, and on transit you really don't have a choice. Only takes one smelly/dirty person to ruin your transit experience. In general I don't really like dealing with people, so being in a nice private personal cocoon in a car is a nice break from city life every once in a while.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Procrastinational

I'd take transit over driving an automatic car any day. There is just something so satisfying about rowing through the gears.

Only way to live: automatic trains and standard cars

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Huge supporter of public transit, use it all the time (along with biking) but I must also defnd the idea of owning a car.

The freedom to go anywhere at any time is massive, especially for those with outdoor adventure hobbies (or other hobbies / interests / work that require the ability to access inconvenient locations and or carry heavy / awkward equipment).

When living in BC from May to October I would frequently go on road trips to the interior and go hiking. I was also a freelance videographer filming weddings and company promotional videos, public transit could never fulfill my needs. Yes I could rent cars, but that still requires having to take extra time / planning to actually obtain and return such vehicles frequently (AKA a big pain in the ass).

To add to that your own car already has your personalized comforts ready (it is a home base).

Also, I really enjoy driving, and I really enjoy driving standard.

Finally just like owning a shinny 21 gear ultra fast and shiny top of the line bike, there is a romance associated with owing your own nice car.

Hence even in Japan, the nation with the world's best train network, car ownership is still within the top 10 nations.

I agree with you completely, I'd have to be crazy to pretend like owning a car isn't a massive convenience as well as many other things. All I've been trying to say is that there's more than meets the eye with transit too!

[red-paladin]

I agree that the thread is getting too far off topic. There are a lot of issues related to this project, but we can't just talk about general transit vs. car issues