Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by dpogue

It might have a bigger impact than you'd imagine. Up to 50% of the people boarding the 99 B-Line aren't UBC students, but work between Commercial and Arbutus. By starting the buses at Arbutus, you've potentially up to doubled effective capacity per bus. Traffic along Broadway also tends to be worse between Commercial and Arbutus, so by avoiding that section each bus can complete a single run faster. The route is also shorter, so you need fewer buses on the road even just to maintain existing frequencies (which could probably be increased slightly from 2 minutes).

I would guess extending Millennium Line to Arbutus could free up somewhere between 20% and 30% of the 99 B-Line buses, possibly more. Also important to remember that the Evergreen Line will be bringing more students in on transit when it opens.

Absolutely, I don't mean to diminish the great benefits a line to Arbutus will have. But in the end, we do need a SkyTrain all the way to UBC, and with a phased approach I'm not confident that it will happen anytime soon.

[squeezied]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Or they can just put a Park and Ride at Arbutus so those UBC students can just park their Lamborginis there (which they use to get to and from the campus) and take the subway all the way home. Alternatively, perhaps increasing student housing so people don't have to live far away to study in UBC, no?

For goodness sakes, lay off the talk about UBC students and their fancy cars. It's getting tiring. A wealthy minority does not generalize the overall demographics. Do you really think people take your opinions seriously when you constantly spew out your UBC/westside/wealthy hate? Why don't you start acting your age?

[Vancity]

phasing this is short sighted.

the broadway line should go RRT all the way to UBC. anything less is short sightedness.

[st7860]

Originally Posted by squeezied

For goodness sakes, lay off the talk about UBC students and their fancy cars. It's getting tiring. A wealthy minority does not generalize the overall demographics. Do you really think people take your opinions seriously when you constantly spew out your UBC/westside/wealthy hate? Why don't you start acting your age?

Exactly. Evidently, there is hate around success. Hate that some people pay 5 times domestic tuition rates. Hate that their tuition and taxes are lower because of 'those' people. etc.

The 99 bline is the busiest bus route in north america.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Vancity

phasing this is short sighted.

the broadway line should go RRT all the way to UBC. anything less is short sightedness.

Phasing is the only way to get this line started at all, considering the way Translink is governed. Only an edict and a pile of money from the province will solve that problem.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Phasing is the only way to get this line started at all, considering the way Translink is governed. Only an edict and a pile of money from the province will solve that problem.

While I agree some thoughts. Ridership west of Arbutus is forecast to be 5000 people per hour per direction (compared to 13,000 on central Broadway). To me this means RRT west of Arbutus is a nice to have instead of a must have. Then again with Translinks history of under forecasting ridership on rapid transit it might just move the bline problem to Arbutus.

[st7860]

I wonder if those case studies that discuss termination at Arbutus instead of UBC ever include the buses and drivers that will be freed up such as those from the 43, 33, 84, etc..

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Rico

While I agree some thoughts. Ridership west of Arbutus is forecast to be 5000 people per hour per direction (compared to 13,000 on central Broadway). To me this means RRT west of Arbutus is a nice to have instead of a must have. Then again with Translinks history of under forecasting ridership on rapid transit it might just move the bline problem to Arbutus.

That number seems awfully high. The B line wouldn't be able to handle that. Just an educated guess, but with the B line operating at 3000 pphpd and approximately half of that going to UBC, that leaves around 1500 pphpd west of Arbutus. It's hard to fathom that ridership will increase that dramatically in the next few decades. Then again, each new generation that joins the workforce is increasingly going with transit.

Edit - Or is that the forecasted number for a subway to UBC scenario?

[st7860]

Originally Posted by logan5

That number seems awfully high. The B line wouldn't be able to handle that. Just an educated guess, but with the B line operating at 3000 pphpd and approximately half of that going to UBC, that leaves around 1500 pphpd west of Arbutus. It's hard to fathom that ridership will increase that dramatically in the next few decades.

Edit - Or is that the forecasted number for a subway to UBC scenario?

You'd be surprised how many people would take the subway instead of a bus even if the trip is a bit slower. I've encountered many people who would take the Canada Line from Landsdowne to Vancouver or Metrotown by transferring at waterfront to the expo line instead of taking a bus to metrotown or getting off at oakridge then taking the 41 to joyce.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by st7860

You'd be surprised how many people would take the subway instead of a bus even if the trip is a bit slower. I've encountered many people who would take the Canada Line from Landsdowne to Vancouver or Metrotown by transferring at waterfront to the expo line instead of taking a bus to metrotown or getting off at oakridge then taking the 41 to joyce.

I always take the train if the option is the same or even ~10 mins longer. I can't stand the constant stop/start of a bus ride, particularly with the typical lead-footed driver. You'd think every stop is a surprise when they see it...

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by st7860

You'd be surprised how many people would take the subway instead of a bus even if the trip is a bit slower. I've encountered many people who would take the Canada Line from Landsdowne to Vancouver or Metrotown by transferring at waterfront to the expo line instead of taking a bus to metrotown or getting off at oakridge then taking the 41 to joyce.

i have to agree with this. I'm not much of a transit user but when i do us it, i do the exact same thing. i avoid buses and go a bit further out of my way to stay on SkyTrain. the less transfers to/from buses the more people will use it. I'm proof of that really and i don't even take transit all that much.

i admit SkyTrain is handy to use and have been using it more frequently. buses, no, SkyTrain, yes! going down Broadway would be a nice completion of the network for the foreseeable future.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

The train rolls down the hill out of one station, building up speed. And it rolls up the hill toward the next station, which bleeds off the speed without having to brake as much.

I read somewhere that Canada Line does that downtown.

Originally Posted by dpogue

It might have a bigger impact than you'd imagine. Up to 50% of the people boarding the 99 B-Line aren't UBC students, but work between Commercial and Arbutus. By starting the buses at Arbutus, you've potentially up to doubled effective capacity per bus. Traffic along Broadway also tends to be worse between Commercial and Arbutus, so by avoiding that section each bus can complete a single run faster. The route is also shorter, so you need fewer buses on the road even just to maintain existing frequencies (which could probably be increased slightly from 2 minutes).

I would guess extending Millennium Line to Arbutus could free up somewhere between 20% and 30% of the 99 B-Line buses, possibly more. Also important to remember that the Evergreen Line will be bringing more students in on transit when it opens.

Absolutely agreed. Rapid Bus from Arbutus would not be as crowded as from Commercial.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Does it say anywhere what they expect this segment to cost, as opposed to the entire length to UBC, which is supposed to cost $3 billion? It sucks that we have to phase this. It will still be a huge improvement, but 5 kilometres doesn't really add all that much to the overall network and more importantly, doesn't allow for redistribution of buses that will become redundant.

I don't have the figures handy, but I think the rough guesstimate for VCC to UBC all-underground was a bit over $3 Billion.

Versus the estimated $2 Billion of the build from VCC to Arbutus.
The technical engineering underway will refine this estimate to a more accurate number.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

I don't have the figures handy, but I think the rough guesstimate for VCC to UBC all-underground was a bit over $3 Billion.

Versus the estimated $2 Billion of the build from VCC to Arbutus.
The technical engineering underway will refine this estimate to a more accurate number.

I was hoping it would be less. I like to fantasize that some form of senior government just says "screw it, just built it all at once" and helps out. But I know that won't happen. It's just unfortunate because we know that extension will have to happen eventually, and it's only going to get more expensive. Not to mention the savings from using the same TBM.

[red-paladin]

Originally Posted by st7860

You'd be surprised how many people would take the subway instead of a bus even if the trip is a bit slower. I've encountered many people who would take the Canada Line from Landsdowne to Vancouver or Metrotown by transferring at waterfront to the expo line instead of taking a bus to metrotown or getting off at oakridge then taking the 41 to joyce.

To be fair, that bus isn't that frequent, and it takes quite a while.
It should be faster, but it's more of a hassle. If it were a B-Line, then people really should be expected to take it.


As far as the line itself goes, the current Phase I extension sets up the common eastern Europe metro plan of a city centre triangle with three intersecting lines. It's been used in so many cities and it's clear it's going to help here.
I agree that many more people will travel that corridor that used to travel the existing two sides of the triangle route.

[nname]

Originally Posted by st7860

You'd be surprised how many people would take the subway instead of a bus even if the trip is a bit slower. I've encountered many people who would take the Canada Line from Landsdowne to Vancouver or Metrotown by transferring at waterfront to the expo line instead of taking a bus to metrotown or getting off at oakridge then taking the 41 to joyce.

Trip from New West to Richmond during peak hours:

Expo -> 410: 1hr 5min
Expo -> 430: 1hr 10min
Expo -> 049 -> Canada: 1hr 11min
Expo -> 041/043 -> Canada: 1hr 4min
Expo -> 033 -> Canada: 1hr 4min
Expo -> 025 -> Canada: 1hr 4min
Expo -> 099 -> Canada: 1hr 4min
Expo -> Canada: 1hr 6min

You can pretty much get there with only 7min difference no matter which route you take (unless, of course, you miss your connection)

[TourOdeon]

Originally Posted by st7860

You'd be surprised how many people would take the subway instead of a bus even if the trip is a bit slower. I've encountered many people who would take the Canada Line from Landsdowne to Vancouver or Metrotown by transferring at waterfront to the expo line instead of taking a bus to metrotown or getting off at oakridge then taking the 41 to joyce.

For some reason, I don't get dizzy when taking a skytrain, but I frequently get a headache after taking a long bus ride home after work.. For that reason, I try to avoid taking bus as much as possible

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by squeezied

For goodness sakes, lay off the talk about UBC students and their fancy cars. It's getting tiring. A wealthy minority does not generalize the overall demographics. Do you really think people take your opinions seriously when you constantly spew out your UBC/westside/wealthy hate? Why don't you start acting your age?

Thank you.

[casper]

Originally Posted by officedweller

I read somewhere that Canada Line does that downtown.....

Given Canada Line is conventional rail, that is likely the case.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I always take the train if the option is the same or even ~10 mins longer. I can't stand the constant stop/start of a bus ride, particularly with the typical lead-footed driver. You'd think every stop is a surprise when they see it...

I was in Seattle over the weekend and "lead-footed" seemed to be the rule for their Bus drivers, also every bus seemed to feel like the suspension was in need of repair. Compared to the CMBC buses, the buses used by Translink are more comfortable rides. Seattle closed the light rail system during the Weekend so I didn't get to ride it.

In Metro Vancouver, I will prefer the train before I will take a bus. Because the service level is so good with the Skytrain/Canada Line, it's actually more time-efficient to transfer at Waterfront or Grandville/City-Hall, or at Broadway/Commercial than it is to take a shorter bus route that doesn't go partly or completely downtown first.

The trick to getting people to use Transit, is to intentionally take transit when they're still kids, and leave the car at home as much as possible. I grew up somewhere where there simply was no bus service, so when I moved to some place that had bus service I was actually unsure how to navigate the bus system and didn't know that you could just ask (any) Bus driver. When I moved to Vancouver, I didn't even bring a car. So I made every decision about where to live and shop based around "how far from the Skytrain"