Chief William Commanda Bridge (former Prince of Wales Bridge)

[lrt's friend]

I am sorry but this is all the consequence of repudiating the Chiarelli plan and the TMP that went with it. The city bought the bridge for a reason at the time and since then we changed our minds on whole lot of things and we don't know what to do with the bridge anymore. I believe that it is of limited value to STO although initial plans include it.

It is like all major changes of government. Major reversals are made and a lot of time and money is wasted.

We are about to see this with the Doug Ford government as well, although it may take time for it to become apparent.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I am sorry but this is all the consequence of repudiating the Chiarelli plan and the TMP that went with it. The city bought the bridge for a reason at the time and since then we changed our minds on whole lot of things and we don't know what to do with the bridge anymore. I believe that it is of limited value to STO although initial plans include it.

It is like all major changes of government. Major reversals are made and a lot of time and money is wasted.

We are about to see this with the Doug Ford government as well, although it may take time for it to become apparent.

I'm pretty sure the city bought the bridge long before the Chiarelli plan, which didn't include any use of the bridge.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I'm pretty sure the city bought the bridge long before the Chiarelli plan, which didn't include any use of the bridge.

No they didn't, the city bought the bridge specifically for the Chiarelli plan of the O-Train project.

[OCCheetos]

The intention was always to run across into Gatineau (that's why they got the federal certificate of fitness). That was before Chiarelli. They later bought the tracks and the bridge during Chiarelli's term but it was never part of the North/South LRT plan.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

The intention was always to run across into Gatineau (that's why they got the federal certificate of fitness). That was before Chiarelli. They later bought the tracks and the bridge during Chiarelli's term but it was never part of the North/South LRT plan.

Are you sure about that was before Chiarelli I got my info from wikipedia

[passwordisnt123]

If ever anybody was going to propose a unified Ottawa-Gatineau transit authority with a single consolidated transportation plan, now would be the time.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Are you sure about that was before Chiarelli I got my info from wikipedia

Chiarelli became mayor after the O-Train was planned, and even after it first opened.

[Kitchissippi]

The POW bridge has been in the Cycling plan since the late 1980s, it's one of the reasons the city bought it.

[lrt's friend]

Bob Chiarelli was chair of regional council before he was mayor. At the time, transportation and transit planning was the responsibility of regional government. Bob Chiarelli was the person who championed bringing rail transit to Ottawa including the original O-Train project. I checked and Bob Chiarelli became Regional Chair in 1997 and it was in late 1997 that I remember talking to a friend visiting from the States that a commuter train was coming to the O-Train corridor.

I distinctly remember that Bob Chiarelli was involved when the city purchased the POW bridge. The city purchased the O-Train corridor from CP and CP didn't need the POW bridge anymore so they purchased it as a natural continuation of the O-Train project.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Bob Chiarelli was chair of regional council before he was mayor. At the time, transportation and transit planning was the responsibility of regional government. Bob Chiarelli was the person who championed bringing rail transit to Ottawa including the original O-Train project. I checked and Bob Chiarelli became Regional Chair in 1997 and it was in late 1997 that I remember talking to a friend visiting from the States that a commuter train was coming to the O-Train corridor.

I distinctly remember that Bob Chiarelli was involved when the city purchased the POW bridge. The city purchased the O-Train corridor from CP and CP didn't need the POW bridge anymore so they purchased it as a natural continuation of the O-Train project.

Yep that's exactly what I remembered as well

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Yep that's exactly what I remembered as well

Good Day.

Me also...

The bridge was basically simply included in the subdivision purchase, up to and including the stretch over in Gatineau, at the subdivision delineation (border).
IE: tossed in so as to get it off CP's books.
So we ended up with a bridge and RoW in Gatineau that they have been bouncing around ever since, with no real plan nor purpose.

NoJoy!

[OCCheetos]

I misremembered some things, my bad.

I still think that there was some hope of extending the line into Gatineau though because otherwise there was no need to get the certificate of fitness from the CTA.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Bob Chiarelli was chair of regional council before he was mayor. At the time, transportation and transit planning was the responsibility of regional government. Bob Chiarelli was the person who championed bringing rail transit to Ottawa including the original O-Train project. I checked and Bob Chiarelli became Regional Chair in 1997 and it was in late 1997 that I remember talking to a friend visiting from the States that a commuter train was coming to the O-Train corridor.

I distinctly remember that Bob Chiarelli was involved when the city purchased the POW bridge. The city purchased the O-Train corridor from CP and CP didn't need the POW bridge anymore so they purchased it as a natural continuation of the O-Train project.

I think I recall that establishing the O-Train was one of Chiarelli's main planks in his 1997 election campaign. (Don't ask me how I remember this; I was not actually quite old enough to vote at the time)

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I misremembered some things, my bad.

I still think that there was some hope of extending the line into Gatineau though because otherwise there was no need to get the certificate of fitness from the CTA.

Good Day.

They got a CTA certificate because they had to, to operate at all. The purchase as a whole was of a CTA certified in-operation rail subdivision (freight, and passenger (the Wakefield tourist train was still recent enough to enter the thought and plan process)), operating under Capitol Railways authority, and needed proper authorizations and exemptions to operate a 'high' frequency passenger line over an interprovincial subdivision, with non-standard equipment - non-FRA compliant. The fact that they were not actually going over to Gatineau was irrelevant - they could have, easily, at any moment in time, at that time (2000). And there was indeed plenty of 'talk' of actually doing so early on in the O-Train 'pilot', except for the political behind-the-curtain pushback from several quarters, including the Gatineau Council of the time. Pity. <sigh>

NoJoy!

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Good Day.

They got a CTA certificate because they had to, to operate at all. The purchase as a whole was of a CTA certified in-operation rail subdivision (freight, and passenger (the Wakefield tourist train was still recent enough to enter the thought and plan process)), operating under Capitol Railways authority, and needed proper authorizations and exemptions to operate a 'high' frequency passenger line over an interprovincial subdivision. The fact that they were not actually going over to Gatineau was irrelevant - they could have, easily, at any moment in time, at that time (2000). And there was indeed plenty of 'talk' of actually doing so early on in the O-Train 'pilot', except for the political behind-the-curtain pushback from several quarters, including the Gatineau Council of the time. Pity. <sigh>

NoJoy!

This was discussed somewhere on this forum, but that isn't the case. So long as they don't operate across borders, they don't need a certificate. (See: GO).

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

This was discussed somewhere on this forum, but that isn't the case. So long as they don't operate across borders, they don't need a certificate. (See: GO).

Good Day.

Yes, indeed, see GO.

IIRC, that discussion concluded with the acceptance that those pieces of GO were operation under the authorities of companies and agencies that had the necessary certificates to operate interprovincially. GO therefore, itself, did not need the certificates.

EnJoy!

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Good Day.

Yes, indeed, see GO.

IIRC, that discussion concluded with the acceptance that those pieces of GO were operation under the authorities of companies and agencies that had the necessary certificates to operate interprovincially. GO therefore, itself, did not need the certificates.

EnJoy!

I don't remember that happening (but I may have forgotten), but I do remember citing this CTA decision where it states that provincial commuter rail systems aren't eligible for certificates of fitness.

CN also submitted that GCRC's operation is similar if not identical to GO Transit and that the same decision should be rendered in this case to GCRC as provided in Decision No. LET-R-204-1998. The Agency respectfully disagrees. GO Transit's commuter train is operated entirely within the boundaries of the province of Ontario and, therefore, is not eligible for a certificate of fitness as it is not a railway that falls within the legislative authority of Parliament.

The city received the certificate of fitness well before it had the intention of purchasing the subdivision, and the application for the certificate specifically mentions the possibility of operating into Gatineau.

By virtue of proposed running rights agreements with other railway operators or by proposed construction of a railway line into the province of Quebec.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I don't remember that happening (but I may have forgotten), but I do remember citing this CTA decision where it states that provincial commuter rail systems aren't eligible for certificates of fitness.

The city received the certificate of fitness well before it had the intention of purchasing the subdivision, and the application for the certificate specifically mentions the possibility of operating into Gatineau.

Good Day.

First - my bad... the certificate was issued for the operation while the line was still rented from CP.... for the operation of non-FRA equipment, with the interprovincial aspects split between CP and Capitol Railways (CP did not wish to bear responsibility, so Capitol Railways was the operator of record for certification).
When the line was purchased from CP, the certifications were amended to reflect purely Capitol Railways.

As for the ruling... yup...for provincial ops. The GO rail ops are pure provincial, and so even though they are operating on rail that may go interprov (at quite some distance from the GO ops), even and esp. rented ops rail, there was no need for Fed certs. BUT - ours IS interprov, as is our bus ops, and hence Fed certs and jurisdictions.

The GO discussions went on from GO, which was not involved in the last of the threads, to those rail services farther north that cross interprov, and require certs.

This is indeed all IIRC, and I think we both stand to be reminded, referenced, and corrected. I will start to look through the threads, and see what I can dig up/through.

EnJoy!

[acottawa]

People are calling two different things the "Chiarelli Plan"

The RMOC under Chairman Chiarelli had a plan to build a conventional railway, starting with a pilot project (which is basically the service that exists on the Trillium line now). It is described in a submission to the CTA in 2000. This plan included what is now the Trillium Line plus potential extensions to the airport and Quebec.
https://otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/745-r-2000

The City of Ottawa under Mayor Chiarelli scrapped this plan and instead made a plan to remove conventional railway and build a streetcar-style system with surface extensions to downtown (along Albert Slater) and to Riverside South (with Barrhaven added later). There was no extension to Quebec included in this project, but the 2003 TMP identified it as a number of potential extensions.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Good Day.

First - my bad... the certificate was issued for the operation while the line was still rented from CP.... for the operation of non-FRA equipment, with the interprovincial aspects split between CP and Capitol Railways (CP did not wish to bear responsibility, so Capitol Railways was the operator of record for certification).
When the line was purchased from CP, the certifications were amended to reflect purely Capitol Railways.

As for the ruling... yup...for provincial ops. The GO rail ops are pure provincial, and so even though they are operating on rail that may go interprov (at quite some distance from the GO ops), even and esp. rented ops rail, there was no need for Fed certs. BUT - ours IS interprov, as is our bus ops, and hence Fed certs and jurisdictions.

The GO discussions went on from GO, which was not involved in the last of the threads, to those rail services farther north that cross interprov, and require certs.

This is indeed all IIRC, and I think we both stand to be reminded, referenced, and corrected. I will start to look through the threads, and see what I can dig up/through.

EnJoy!

Ah, I think I understand what you were referencing earlier.
Ontario Northland owns a subsidiary which has a certificate and that subsidiary runs into Quebec. So, even though Ontario Northland has a line that runs into Quebec, they don't need the certificate since their subsidiary does instead.