ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[johnandahalf]

Originally Posted by bigstick

I know this has been mentioned even by me, but it is sad to see this site with the infamous Armory complex gone, use to have a lot of fun there in the 70s and 80s. GONE WITH THE WIND...

Meh. I went there one time, on my first night "out" in Atlanta in 1993. The staff was so unbelievably rude, I never went back. Ever. So much for the famed "Southern Hospitality" I heard so much about. More like "Southern High School" if you ask me.

When Viewpoint was proposed, the rendering showed 3 towers on the block, all with a similar "swoop" crown. Is this supposed to be "Viewpoint 2"? Where did "Skyhouse 2" come from if Skyhouse is several blocks away?

[WEZiegler]

Originally Posted by bigstick

....... The Beltline project, which will be a 22-mile public transit, trails, and parks loop around the heart of the city of Atlanta on the site of an abandoned rail and industrial corridor, is a long-range project that has already spawned infrastructure improvements, a new signature park in Fourth Ward, and its first completed trail. .............

FYI Bigstick; The Eastside Trail is the 3rd trail to be completed on the BeltLine, I think it's important to point out because it shows how much we tend to ignore South & West Atlanta, which has a ton of potential. Mark my words.....South and West Atlanta will do great over the next decade or two through renovations, adaptive re-use and in-fill development.

1st Section - 2.2 miles over by West End
2nd Section - a little over a mile I believe in the northwest, by Tanyard Creek park and Collier Road

The BeltLine is now working on extending the West End trail(cannot remember how far) and once the Edgewood bridge is finished they'll bring the Eastside Trail down to Dekalb Ave. up to Krog tunnel, up Wylie to reconnect to the Beltline in Reynoldstown, then down to Glenwood Park.

[echinatl]

Originally Posted by ATL_sKyHigh

http://oxblue.com/open/SkyHouseApartments

Thanks!!

[pdpmishap]

Originally Posted by johnandahalf

Meh. I went there one time, on my first night "out" in Atlanta in 1993. The staff was so unbelievably rude, I never went back. Ever. So much for the famed "Southern Hospitality" I heard so much about. More like "Southern High School" if you ask me.

When Viewpoint was proposed, the rendering showed 3 towers on the block, all with a similar "swoop" crown. Is this supposed to be "Viewpoint 2"? Where did "Skyhouse 2" come from if Skyhouse is several blocks away?

They're using the identical architecture of Skyhouse w/ the rooftop pool and separate deck. The original Viewpoint (Trilogy) plans had a pair of towers over a podium deck more similar to Metropolis. The swoop housed the chilled water system. That was a recession ago so now it's just a really wide/low pre-cast deck, balcony mounted AC units, and a separate 8 story apt building where the SBX is now. The 7th St apt building will really never see sunshine given it'll be shorter than the Viewpoint deck.

[nature's calling]

Originally Posted by simms3_redux

^^^It moved down the street from Selig's property at Piedmont and Peachtree, so now there is a vacant anchor space on the corner there. FYI. (not a net absorption)

Speaking of retail, have we heard *anything* about Streets of Buckhead? I no longer have any face time with the leasing team, but even when I did they were so tight-lipped...supposedly construction is in full swing? Surely there has been solid leasing momentum if Blum is confident enough not to renew Cheesecake Factory there in the hopes of something grander.

They are currently building the flagship Hermes store (as of January). I haven't been to Atlanta in quite some time, so I'm not sure if construction is happening in all sections of the development. Oscar de la Renta is apparently opening a store later this year or early next year, but the exact location is unknown (I assume they are still committed to Buckhead Atlanta, but it wouldn't shock me if they have chosen to build a store in Phipps Plaza instead). I hope they reveal the tenants soon.

Any update would be greatly appreciated.

[atlantaguy]

Originally Posted by simms3_redux

^^^It moved down the street from Selig's property at Piedmont and Peachtree, so now there is a vacant anchor space on the corner there. FYI. (not a net absorption)

Technically it really IS net absorption, though. The Container Store relocation to the former Borders at Buckhead Triangle is a MUCH larger (and now two level) space than what they vacated at Piedmont.

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by johnandahalf

Meh. I went there one time, on my first night "out" in Atlanta in 1993. The staff was so unbelievably rude, I never went back. Ever. So much for the famed "Southern Hospitality" I heard so much about. More like "Southern High School" if you ask me.

When Viewpoint was proposed, the rendering showed 3 towers on the block, all with a similar "swoop" crown. Is this supposed to be "Viewpoint 2"? Where did "Skyhouse 2" come from if Skyhouse is several blocks away?

You must not have had much experience with bartenders...they aren't generally the type to worry about the feelings of every customer - they sling a drink and move on, and honestly from the attitude coming across in your post it's easy to understand. Rude often breeds rude.

Southern High School? I'm sorry you got your feelings hurt, but there is no need to badmouth an Atlanta institution like the Armory.

[simms3_redux]

Originally Posted by atlantaguy

Technically it really IS net absorption, though. The Container Store relocation to the former Borders at Buckhead Triangle is a MUCH larger (and now two level) space than what they vacated at Piedmont.

15,000 SF to 20,000 SF? (I'm guessing here)

Tit for tat...it's still musical chairs no matter how you look at it. Conversely Crate & Barrel went from a large 2-story configuration at Lenox to a smaller 1-story configuration across the street in the past 6-12 months (which was a former CompUSA)...I would leave out the technicalities and still call that a musical chairs, as well. Some brokers got paid, some developers were happy, some architects got paid, but overall it's not as if there is now "more retail" in Buckhead (for that we'll have to wait for SOB...and aside from whispers and Hermes it's unknown the extent of the commitments already in place).

Leasing up Midtown retail (as at Viewpoint)...now that's solid "net absorption".

[nature's calling]

I found some information on what is presumably a tenant list for the Buckhead Atlanta project. You can check it out on the Buckhead Atlanta Tenant Coordination website in the "project drawings" section.

http://buckheadtenants.com/project_drawings

Good to see that most of the original tenants are still committed to the project.

From Google Maps.

[atlantaguy]

Originally Posted by simms3_redux

15,000 SF to 20,000 SF? (I'm guessing here)

Tit for tat...it's still musical chairs no matter how you look at it. Conversely Crate & Barrel went from a large 2-story configuration at Lenox to a smaller 1-story configuration across the street in the past 6-12 months (which was a former CompUSA)...I would leave out the technicalities and still call that a musical chairs, as well. Some brokers got paid, some developers were happy, some architects got paid, but overall it's not as if there is now "more retail" in Buckhead (for that we'll have to wait for SOB...and aside from whispers and Hermes it's unknown the extent of the commitments already in place).

Leasing up Midtown retail (as at Viewpoint)...now that's solid "net absorption".

Okay, negative Nancy. How about you provide some actual proof that Crate & Barrels new space is smaller than their former within the mall?

How interesting that there is more depth to many selections and product lines now than their former location. It certainly feels larger to me, and is obviously busier than ever. Same thing applies to the Container Store.

Of course, only if these requests don't threaten your little agenda of late. BTW, nobody I know has been mugged or assaulted outside of either...

[scania]

Originally Posted by simms3_redux

15,000 SF to 20,000 SF? (I'm guessing here)

Tit for tat...it's still musical chairs no matter how you look at it. Conversely Crate & Barrel went from a large 2-story configuration at Lenox to a smaller 1-story configuration across the street in the past 6-12 months (which was a former CompUSA)...I would leave out the technicalities and still call that a musical chairs, as well. Some brokers got paid, some developers were happy, some architects got paid, but overall it's not as if there is now "more retail" in Buckhead (for that we'll have to wait for SOB...and aside from whispers and Hermes it's unknown the extent of the commitments already in place).

Leasing up Midtown retail (as at Viewpoint)...now that's solid "net absorption".

What's interesting is that so many people talk about how great Midtown is and how everyone wants to be in Midtown. But, a place like Viewpoint has struggle to get retail tenants, and other businesses don't seem to last long.

[pdpmishap]

Originally Posted by scania

What's interesting is that so many people talk about how great Midtown is and how everyone wants to be in Midtown. But, a place like Viewpoint has struggle to get retail tenants, and other businesses don't seem to last long.

It's a combination of factors. Viewpoint's parking deck isn't easy to get to since you have to go all the way to 8th and route over to Juniper to get there. It's the same reason I only eat at Jimmy John's if I'm on foot since it's far too much hassle to park at Metropolis if I'm on the way home. The SBX (free parking) gets tons of business and it's interesting to watch the traffic jam that tiny lot creates. I'm guessing Loudermilk hasn't been too inviting on the rents either although SBX seems to thrive. The concierge at Spire once told me Fresh 2 Order pays five figures/mon in rent so I'm guessing a lot of businesses just can't justify Peachtree frontage w/o any easy way to park. Spire benefits of a 1 way going past their deck and a 2 way that makes circling back easier as well.

If they made it easier to park and moved rents inline w/ the market, the added density of another 400-500 residents will likely push for at least a few more tenants to the area if not to Viewpoint itself. There are well over a thousand residents between 8th and 5th St and probably a few thousand more within a half mile radius.

[simms3_redux]

Originally Posted by atlantaguy

Okay, negative Nancy. How about you provide some actual proof that Crate & Barrels new space is smaller than their former within the mall?

How interesting that there is more depth to many selections and product lines now than their former location. It certainly feels larger to me, and is obviously busier than ever. Same thing applies to the Container Store.

Of course, only if these requests don't threaten your little agenda of late. BTW, nobody I know has been mugged or assaulted outside of either...

Selig owns the shopping center that had CS (Buckhead Market) and owns the shopping center where they moved (Buckhead Triangle).

They had 22,932 SF of showroom space and it appears 5,736 SF of storage space at the former center (28,761 SF total). They moved to a contiguous 29,833 SF on 2 floors, for a gain of either 1,072 SF or 6,808 SF if they didn't have that storage that I think they did at the former location.

The new location is great...those 2-floor Borders are tough to backfill! We had to split a 2-floor Borders at one of our centers into two tenants (Ulta and Total Woman on separate floors). FTR Selig also owns Brookwood Marketplace where the Sam Flax replaced Kroger and the Aveda Institute replaced that 2-floor Borders (which was also about 28,000 SF).

The average CS size is about 25,000 SF and the average 2-floor Borders is somewhere between 25-30,000 SF, so it's a perfect match. Not to mention the Jos. A Bank at that corner location is reported to have been the 2nd highest volume store in the chain in I think 2010 or 2011 (I also heard that the Saks at Phipps is the 2nd highest volume Saks in the chain...though not sure how the metric is measured or what that means exactly).


Your proof for Container Store (it DOES feel larger due to a much more efficient space, but this is going to blow your mind):

Article 1 states that C&B at Lenox was ~35,000 SF, which feels right to me.

http://www.tonetoatl.com/2012/03/apple-and-urban-outfitters-expanding-at.html

Though neither Simon nor its local PR agency would confirm anything, well placed sources tell me that Apple and Urban Outfitters each feel the need to expand given their success, and each would like space in the front of Lenox Square. According to Lenox Square, the current Crate & Barrel space is 35,000 square feet and the current Apple is 8,100 square foot and current Urban Outfitters is 12,643, this would seem to mean both Apple and Urban's could expand significantly, sharing the C&B space.

Article 2 states that C&B at Lenox was larger than the relo, and that the relo is 17,000 SF.

http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/print...-at-new-shops-around-lenox.html?page=all

“This is going to be a much more engaging space for customers,” Fialdini said. Although a bit smaller than its two-story spot at Lenox Square, the around 17,000-square-foot store is just one level and offers more convenient parking than the mall. Skylights provide natural lighting, which creates a more homey feel.

Article 3 states the new C&B is over 24,000 SF.

http://www.ajc.com/news/business/crate-barrel-leaving-lenox-square-for-nearby-cente/nQLrX/

Crate & Barrel will anchor the center, taking 24,143 square feet. The store is set to open next spring.

For comparison, the CB2 down at 12th and Midtown is about 11,000 SF (I can't remember if that includes storage, but I think it does as that single floor we all see is certainly not 11,000 SF by itself). The Room & Board furniture store at White Provision is something around 35,000 SF (which would put it on equal footing to the former C&B space at Lenox).

[simms3_redux]

Originally Posted by nature's calling

I found some information on what is presumably a tenant list for the Buckhead Atlanta project. You can check it out on the Buckhead Atlanta Tenant Coordination website in the "project drawings" section.

http://buckheadtenants.com/project_drawings

Good to see that most of the original tenants are still committed to the project.

That's awesome...I can't seem to open the PDFs though as they are password protected

[testarossa50]

With regard to retail in Midtown, I rarely shop here just because it means lugging the stuff back home. I almost never drive from my Midtown condo to another point in Midtown; it just doesn't feel right. If I'm having to borrow my gf's car to buy something, then I'll forget the parking hassle and just go to Buckhead most of the time. Or Atlantic Station.

I shop at Publix all the time, and CB2 occasionally, and that's basically it.

Of course F/B is another story altogether. I'm heavily biased in favor of Midtown establishments and walking to them.

I hate saying it, but I feel destination retail is an uphill battle in Midtown. Me we should just stick to what works: food and beverage. In the last five years Midtown has trounced Buckhead in that regard and is showing no signs of stopping. I'm open to considering an open container district and special late-night liquor licenses in areas, provided the extra revenue was used to increase security and patrols, to continue Midtown's advancement in this aspect.

It just seems to be clear to me that being the "party capital" of Atlanta is benefiting Midtown significantly. Skyhouse and 77 12th being located where they are is no coincidence: drinking and driving is taboo nowadays, and people are willing to pay a premium to live close to entertainment. On the other hand, people don't seem to particularly care about living within walking distance to shopping areas, so I question just how much priority being a shopping district should get.

[scania]

Originally Posted by testarossa50

With regard to retail in Midtown, I rarely shop here just because it means lugging the stuff back home. I almost never drive from my Midtown condo to another point in Midtown; it just doesn't feel right. If I'm having to borrow my gf's car to buy something, then I'll forget the parking hassle and just go to Buckhead most of the time. Or Atlantic Station.

I shop at Publix all the time, and CB2 occasionally, and that's basically it.

Of course F/B is another story altogether. I'm heavily biased in favor of Midtown establishments and walking to them.

I hate saying it, but I feel destination retail is an uphill battle in Midtown. Me we should just stick to what works: food and beverage. In the last five years Midtown has trounced Buckhead in that regard and is showing no signs of stopping. I'm open to considering an open container district and special late-night liquor licenses in areas, provided the extra revenue was used to increase security and patrols, to continue Midtown's advancement in this aspect.

It just seems to be clear to me that being the "party capital" of Atlanta is benefiting Midtown significantly. Skyhouse and 77 12th being located where they are is no coincidence: drinking and driving is taboo nowadays, and people are willing to pay a premium to live close to entertainment. On the other hand, people don't seem to particularly care about living within walking distance to shopping areas, so I question just how much priority being a shopping district should get.

It's attitudes like that, that will keep retail down and the vision of The Midtown Mile nothing more than a fantasy. You want to be in favor of midtown establishments, but you won't lug things around, therefore you only support food and beverage.
Also, Midtown has not trounced Buckhead in food and beverage!

[testarossa50]

Originally Posted by scania

It's attitudes like that, that will keep retail down and the vision of The Midtown Mile nothing more than a fantasy. You want to be in favor of midtown establishments, but you won't lug things around, therefore you only support food and beverage.
Also, Midtown has not trounced Buckhead in food and beverage!

Yep, it's issues of practicality and convenience that make the world is the way it is. Not sure we're breaking new ground here.

I'll consider lugging things around if there are actually good and diverse options that are convenient (heck, I do it all the time from Publix and Mac's). But there aren't. Buckhead wins by orders of magnitude, as does Atlantic Station. In those places, I can go to multiple competing stores very easily. In Midtown, you've got to walk all over hell's half acre to do that, or move your car from one precarious parking situation to another.

The F/B question is more subjective, but Buckhead just seems stale and old nowadays, imo. Midtown is pretty clearly where it's at in terms of a full-service entertainment district.

[ChrisInmanPark]

Originally Posted by testarossa50

Yep, it's issues of practicality and convenience that make the world is the way it is. Not sure we're breaking new ground here.

I'll consider lugging things around if there are actually good and diverse options that are convenient (heck, I do it all the time from Publix and Mac's). But there aren't. Buckhead wins by orders of magnitude, as does Atlantic Station. In those places, I can go to multiple competing stores very easily. In Midtown, you've got to walk all over hell's half acre to do that, or move your car from one precarious parking situation to another.

The F/B question is more subjective, but Buckhead just seems stale and old nowadays, imo. Midtown is pretty clearly where it's at in terms of a full-service entertainment district.

I would suggest buying a small cart to "lug" things around. Publix sells a 2 wheeled cart for about $25. I use it all the time to go grocery shopping and it works great and I don't need my car. The cart folds up nicely for easy storage.

I also have a bike with a rack and panniers I put stuff in when I have to go longer distances. You have to think outside the box when living in the city and it feels great every time I run an errand and don't use my car. And it's a hell of a lot more fun!

[SAV]

I think midtown retail will be just fine once the new apartments are built and filled. I always envisioned midtown having a similar retail lineup to Atlantic station mixed with a lil but of lil 5 or Virginia Highland . But I figured the stores would be flagships instead. I think a flagship Apple store would be great. And just one Great department store. Maybe another smaller H& M. I can see some local stores like Wish and Bill Hallman too.

Also, they should market midtown retail to all the people who come to downtown for the conventions and the games.

[Libertarian]

As a shopping venue, the Midtown Mile is just a dream - it's not configured to ever be a shopping district. If the model is the Chicago Mag Mile, that's obsolete too. The reason is simple....Americans are auto-centric and Midtown is simply not auto friendly and never can be. The Atlanta parking meter gestapo makes the case even worse. For shopping, the Westside works, Buckhead works, Perimeter works because there is no parking problem. Focus on food and entertainment.