Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Sorry, maybe I misread. Zoomers and Alpha are rarer terms here in Quebec as well. But Boomers, GenX, GenZ, Milléniaux are very commonly used here in Quebec.

"Milléniaux"? Seriously?

Never, ever heard that in Europe. People would pause for a second to wonder what you're saying if you said "milléniaux" here.

If people are really going to use it (but that will be in an Anglo-Saxon context, or after having read some English articles), they will just say "les millenials", but again, that's not something you hear on a daily base (perhaps some very English-influenced company managers use it).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

"Milléniaux"? Seriously?

Never, ever heard that in Europe. People would pause for a second to wonder what you're saying if you said "milléniaux" here.

If people are really going to use it (but that will be in an Anglo-Saxon context, or after having read some English articles), they will just say "les millenials", but again, that's not something you hear on a daily base (perhaps some very English-influenced company managers use it).

https://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/2...-commandes.php

But hey man, you guys say "footing" for "jogging" or "course à pied", and we're quite nice about not teasing you too much for that.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Never heard it.

Isn't she québécoise ? I wonder (due to her strange accent).

• Video Link

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Isn't she québécoise ? I wonder (due to her strange accent).

• Video Link

Don't think so. We do have a small minority here who have Euro-French accents and vocabulary. (Even some of them local products.) But I don't think she is from Quebec.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

One thing though is that western culture penetrates the non-western world a lot more than vice versa.

Less than it used to be. India is quite revealing here. I'm fascinated to watch it becoming less and less Westernized as each year passes. It's like the old Indian culture is reasserting itself. More and more people use Hindi instead of English, national politicians now mostly speak only in Hindi (even Rahul Gandhi, one of the leaders of the anti-nationalist opposition, and from the most Westernized Indian political family, the Gandhi family, now tweets predominantly in Hindi). And their Bollywood songs are also mostly Hindi songs now.

China is largely closed to Western influence.

Africa is also becoming more "African" and less open to Western influence. French music doesn't really penetrate in Francophone Africa these days.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Don't think so. We do have a small minority here who have Euro-French accents and vocabulary. (Even some of them local products.) But I don't think she is from Quebec.

She says "dollars" though in the song...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Less than it used to be. India is quite revealing here. I'm fascinated to watch it becoming less and less Westernized as each year passes. It's like the old Indian culture is reasserting itself. More and more people use Hindi instead of English, national politicians now mostly speak only in Hindi (even Rahul Gandhi, one of the leaders of the anti-nationalist opposition, and from the most Westernized Indian political family, the Gandhi family, now tweets predominantly in Hindi). And their Bollywood songs are also mostly Hindi songs now.

China is largely closed to Western influence.

Africa is also becoming more "African" and less open to Western influence. French music doesn't really penetrate in Francophone Africa these days.

Yes, I am seeing this trend as well. Technology is becoming more and more democratized and this includes the tech that is used for entertainment which is no longer the privileged reserve of westerners.

I think a big change is on the horizon with movies and TV. Already a lot of American and western story-based audio-visual entertainment is less exportable as people have their own stuff with familiar local themes and faces.

The last bastion of Hollywood dominance is movies with special effects due to their practitioners being so much more advanced than anyone else but this is rapidly changing.

There are already sci fi and superhero movies being produced in other parts of the world with perfectly decent production values and I expect we will only see more and more and Hollywood's share can only decline.

Perhaps in a couple of generations Indian or Chinese sci fi, action or superhero movies will be THE reference that people in America and Europe will swear by?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

She says "dollars" though in the song...

If she was from here, she'd say "piasses" (piastres)!

Just joking...

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Yeah, but most human beings who live today are neither Westerners, nor Western influenced (the way a country like South Africa can be). Do you frankly think people in China, India, or Burkina Faso listen to "Drake"? They don't even know what that is most likely.

The question isn't so much whether they know Drake. The question is whether they are more or less likely to know Drake than Celine Dion. And I guarantee you that if you went to India today, Drake would be more well known than Celine Dion, in no small part because India has substantially younger demographics than all of the West.

You also don't seem to get how much their artists are influenced by the West. Go watch the movie "Gully Boy" (loosely based on one of India's most famous rappers) and you'll get an idea. The movie opens with the protagonist talking about Tupac and basically mocking Western tourists surprised at the idea that Indian slum dwellers would know who Tupac is. By the way, the guy who the movie is based on? One of his first songs was in English with a French sample in the background.

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[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If she was from here, she'd say "piasses" (piastres)!

Just joking...

Ah, I suppose!

Do Acadians also say "piasses"?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You also don't seem to get how much their artists are influenced by the West. Go watch the movie "Gully Boy" (loosely based on one of India's most famous rappers) and you'll get an idea. The movie opens with the protagonist talking about Tupac and basically mocking Western tourists surprised at the idea that Indian slum dwellers would know who Tupac is. By the way, the guy who the movie is based on? One of his first songs was in English with a French sample in the background.

They are and they will get more and more detached from the West. That was my point. 50 years from now, we will barely register in India, they won't need our references anymore, and we probably won't be 'cool' anymore for them, because they will be at a level of affluence and high-quality entertainment offer that will not require a Western role model.

In the 16th and 17th centuries, Indians were little interested in European culture and products. We're slowly going back to that age. I think the movement is irreversible.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Ah, I suppose!

Do Acadians also say "piasses"?

"Piasse" to my knowledge is used in colloquial French for "dollar" by all francophone groups in North America, from Acadiens in the Maritimes to francophones in western Canada, to Franco-Americans in US New England to Cajuns in Louisiana.

I think the only exception might be St-Pierre-et-Miquelon. Not sure about them.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Not sure Lanois fits on that list. He has lived in Ontario since he was a child.

Perhaps you’re right. I had always heard of him being from Quebec (and he lived his first 10 years there) and assumed he was naturally francophone. Beyond that I am more familiar with his body of work than his personal details.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by Acajack

"Piasse" to my knowledge is used in colloquial French for "dollar" by all francophone groups in North America, from Acadiens in the Maritimes to francophones in western Canada, to Franco-Americans in US New England to Cajuns in Louisiana.

I think the only exception might be St-Pierre-et-Miquelon. Not sure about them.

Can confirm. Was tought "dollar" in French class, but hear "piasse" from my Acadian friends amongst themselves, never "dollar".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Perhaps you’re right. I had always heard of him being from Quebec (and he lived his first 10 years there) and assumed he was naturally francophone. Beyond that I am more familiar with his body of work than his personal details.

He doesn't really give interviews in French, aside from a quick phrase à la "bonjour mon ami" here and there.

I saw him with U2 in Montreal a couple of decades ago and it was the same. His interactions with the crowd were almost all in English. Bono probably interacted with the crowd in French as much as he did.

He's lived in the US for a long time.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

He doesn't really give interviews in French, aside from a quick phrase à la "bonjour mon ami" here and there.

I saw him with U2 in Montreal a couple of decades ago and it was the same. His interactions with the crowd were almost all in English. Bono probably interacted with the crowd in French as much as he did.

He's lived in the US for a long time.

Okay, scratch him from the list. How about the others?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

The music discussion is a nice segue into a question that I have for our Quebecois members. I've thought about it from time to time, especially with the temperature of some of the discussions in this very thread...

Do you view Quebec performers (or people involved in music production, etc.) who have had success in the the anglo world to be a positive or a negative (i.e. do you congratulate them for their success, or think of them as 'trators')?

I'm thinking Celine, The Box, Daniel Lanois (performer and producer), Michel Pagliaro, etc. I'm a fan of all of them (though Celine isn't exactly the style I'm into, I do like some of her songs and admire her performances - sad about her health issues, though), and am familiar with their work because it broke into my part of the world, which it probably wouldn't have if they had only performed/worked in French.

Personally I've never seen them as sellouts and I don't think most people in Quebec do either. At this point a lot of people see their global success as a source of pride.

There were some initial criticisms of Céline Dion, and of course this famous song indirectly making fun of her. It's in English, by a legendary Quebec comedy troupe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW_MHi_ULu8

I want to pogne
I want to pogne
Is it the reason that I speak in English?
I want to pogne

I want to pogne
I want to pogne
I do not want to speak my tongue
I just want to pogne

I know I have a big accent et
I know I'm not assez différent
But I want to pogne (I want to pogne)
And I have composed that song

I know the mathématiques
America is a big market
If there is more public
There is more money in my pocket-te

I want to pogne
I want to pogne
I am the Judas of the French Canada
I want-te to pogne

Frog the USA
Frog the USA
I'm gonna be the number one
254-6011

Icitte is a small marché
Icitte, there is no débouché
I want to become very gros
And lâcher ma run de journaux

'Cause I prefer to be Billy Idol than Jean Nichol
Whoa, Lady Mary

Solo's
Pogne pogne, po-pogne pogne
Pogne pogne, po-pogne pogne
Pogne pogne, po-pogne pogne
Pogne pogne, po-pogne pogne
Pogne pogne, po-pogne pogne

Frog in the USA
Frog in the USA
If they discover my origine
It's all finish, maudine

Don't want to go in France
Don't want to talk like the Français
'Cause I prefer the hamburger
Than the café au lait

I want, I want, I want to pogne
I want, I want, I want to pogne, encore
I want, I want, I want to pogne
I want, I want, I want to pogne, yé

I want to pogne (I want, I want)
I want to pogne (I want)
Is it the reason that I speak in english? (I want, I want)
I want to pogne (I want)

I want to pogne (I want, I want, I want to pogne)
I want to pogne (I want)
I do not want to speak my tongue (I want, I want)
I just want to pogne (I want, I want)

I want to pogne (I want, I want)
I just want to pogne (I want, I want)
I want to pogne
I want to pogne

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

They are and they will get more and more detached from the West. That was my point. 50 years from now, we will barely register in India, they won't need our references anymore, and we probably won't be 'cool' anymore for them, because they will be at a level of affluence and high-quality entertainment offer that will not require a Western role model.

In the 16th and 17th centuries, Indians were little interested in European culture and products. We're slowly going back to that age. I think the movement is irreversible.

Lol @ some dude in France lecturing somebody born in India and who speaks the languages about their cultural evolution. Indian culture is actually more culturally influenced by the West today than it used to be in the past.

I am going to guess your entire understanding of Indian culture comes from recent Bollywood and you have no idea about all the other cinema and pop culture in that country. It's the only way somebody could reach the conclusion that you do.

Cultural influence flows in one direction mostly because of lingua franca. At the end of the day, if an Indian is going to engage in a non-Indian language, it's going to be English. They exposes them substantially to ideas in English. On the other hand, if a Westerner is going to engage in a non-Western language, it's far less likely to be an Indian language than say Mandarin or Japanese or Korean. Unless, more of the would somehow starts speaking Hindi this is never going to change. But unlike you, the majority of Indians don't get their knockers in a knot over the issue. They just consider it a normal part of their cultural evolution. After all, their current culture itself is a result of the influence of one colonizer after another.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Lol @ some dude in France lecturing somebody born in India and who speaks the languages about their cultural evolution. Indian culture is actually more culturally influenced by the West today than it used to be in the past.

I am going to guess your entire understanding of Indian culture comes from recent Bollywood and you have no idea about all the other cinema and pop culture in that country. It's the only way somebody could reach the conclusion that you do.

Cultural influence flows in one direction mostly because of lingua franca. At the end of the day, if an Indian is going to engage in a non-Indian language, it's going to be English. They exposes them substantially to ideas in English. On the other hand, if a Westerner is going to engage in a non-Western language, it's far less likely to be an Indian language than say Mandarin or Japanese or Korean. Unless, more of the would somehow starts speaking Hindi this is never going to change. But unlike you, the majority of Indians don't get their knockers in a knot over the issue. They just consider it a normal part of their cultural evolution. After all, their current culture itself is a result of the influence of one colonizer after another.

He is not wrong that the non-West is very likely to continue to move away from western influences. It will be gradual but steady.

I just spent time in a country that was considered a US vassal state or banana republic of sorts not that long ago, and I was surprised at how little global pop music in English was present there - on the radio, in shops, in clubs, in private vehicles and buses, etc.

Now, movies and TV were still highly influenced by the US from what I could see.

But still, what's happened with music there could still fairly easily transpose onto movies and TV as well.

And this is a place still highly affiliated with the US.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I am going to guess your entire understanding of Indian culture comes from recent Bollywood and you have no idea about all the other cinema and pop culture in that country. It's the only way somebody could reach the conclusion that you do.

New Brisavoine grew up in Pondicherry, didn't you know........