Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by Acajack

LOL at the idea that Mylène Farmer has less of a voice than Miley Cyrus, Britney Spears or even... Taylor Swift!

And her material isn't any more repetitive than any of these above or many other huge global stars of today.

He was comparing her to Prince, who is a musical genius. I don't care for Cyrus or Spears anymore that I care for Farmer.

The exemples that you linked just prove how much she has no voice (except the one they create for her in studio with double tracking) and that musically her material is generic and without any originality.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But we are in Gatineau, not Montreal.

Provincials.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I am fairly sure I've seen generational labels in franco media. Correct me if I'm wrong. But I don't think talking about Millennials or Zoomers or X'ers or Boomers is a particularly anglo thing.

They are definitely used often in the media and in common speech in francophone Canada, and I probably have heard them in French media as well, though New Brisavoine may be right that it's way less common over there.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

These terms became common in the US because of Neil Howe and William Strauss.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss%E2%80%93Howe_generational_theory

And they are in common use in Canada. Even if Canadians apply the labels wrongly.

Even in the British press (which I read regularly), I've never seen them used. They use "millennials" and "gen X" (also "gen Z"? can't remember). But "zoomers" and "alpha" I've never seen in the British press (not that you couldn't find the one odd article if you looked carefully).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

He was comparing her to Prince, who is a musical genius. I don't care for Cyrus or Spears anymore that I care for Farmer.

The exemples that you linked just prove how much she has no voice (except the one they create for her in studio with double tracking) and that musically her material is generic and without any originality.

This is all fair criticism, but let's not forget that having a) an awesome voice and b) material that is original, unique and of high quality, are not absolute prerequisites for becoming an international pop music star.

"Singing your material in the English language" is much higher on the list, in fact.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think you may have misunderstood. I am not saying that more Zoomers know Céline than Drake. I am saying that among all people alive right now things tilt to Céline and this is partly because older non-Zoomer demographics are more numerous and because Céline penetrates with Zoomers (even if all Zoomers might not know her) more than Drake penetrates with Gen Xers, Boomers and maybe even Millenials slightly.

The numbers don't add up for Drake's admittedly huge current renown among Zoomers pushing him over the edge to make him more famous than Céline among the entire living population of all ages.

Theoretically there's more people alive today than every human who has ever lived. Give it 20 years, and this changes. I am not actually sure that 20 years from now Celine Dion will be more popular than Drake as the generations changeover. There's not enough Zoomers and Alphas today to move that needle. But it is coming.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Even in the British press (which I read regularly), I've never seen them used. They use "millennials" and "gen X" (also "gen Z"? can't remember). But "zoomers" and "alpha" I've never seen in the British press (not that you couldn't find the one odd article if you looked carefully).

Sorry, maybe I misread. Zoomers and Alpha are rarer terms here in Quebec as well. But Boomers, GenX, GenZ, Milléniaux are very commonly used here in Quebec.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Theoretically there's more people alive today than every human who has ever lived. Give it 20 years, and this changes. I am not actually sure that 20 years from now Celine Dion will be more popular than Drake as the generations changeover. There's not enough Zoomers and Alphas today to move that needle. But it is coming.

I haven't disagreed at all with this during the discussion. It's definitely possible.

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

This song is one of the best songs that was ever made about California. It's my favorite song by Mylène Farmer too.

This was one of my Parisian friends’ favorite song ever. Of course he’s French, because I had literally never heard that song before he made me listen to it 15 years ago or so. For some reason, Mylène Farmer didn’t export as well as most other French singers. The funny thing is she was born in Pierrefonds.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is all fair criticism, but let's not forget that having a) an awesome voice and b) material that is original, unique and of high quality, are not absolute prerequisites for becoming an international pop music star.

"Singing your material in the English language" is much higher on the list, in fact.

Je suis d'accord. 100%. The evidence of K-pop is probably the best example of what crossing over to English can do for artists' careers.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Sorry, maybe I misread. Zoomers and Alpha are rarer terms here in Quebec as well. But Boomers, GenX, GenZ, Milléniaux are very commonly used here in Quebec.

Zoomers (Gen Z) and Alphas (Gen A) are rare in English too. We've only just started talking about these cohorts in any language.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I am fairly sure I've seen generational labels in franco media. Correct me if I'm wrong. But I don't think talking about Millennials or Zoomers or X'ers or Boomers is a particularly anglo thing.

Can't speak for Québec, but in France these terms are not used. "Boomers" has become used a a slur recently, under American influence ("ok boomer!"), but most people use it now as an insult even when addressing people much younger than baby boomers.

The term "baby boomer" (pronounced "bébi boumeur") has long been used in France, since the 1960s probably, but the term "boomer" is recent here, and mostly a slur.

You can find "millennials" and "gen X" in a few journalist articles (mostly copying English press articles), but these terms are not in popular use. I couldn't imagine someone in real life saying "on a beaucoup de problèmes avec les gen-X parce qu'ils posent des conditions d'embauche irréalistes, etc). People just say "les jeunes", or "les nouvelles générations", or "les jeunes diplômés".

When we want to mock them we say "les djeuns" (with an English-sounding pronunciation, i.e. "j" pronounced as in English and pronouncing the final "s" as English speakers do, which sounds likes "lé djeunsse" in French). I like to use that term.

Do you guys say "les djeuns" mockingly in Québec? I suppose not. Probably too Franco-French.

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is all fair criticism, but let's not forget that having a) an awesome voice and b) material that is original, unique and of high quality, are not absolute prerequisites for becoming an international pop music star.

"Singing your material in the English language" is much higher on the list, in fact.

True. But even singing in English is not a guarantee. Take
Kylie Minogue, for exemple... she's huge in her native Australia as well as in the UK, her material is just as catchy as any average American female star, but yet she never made it in the US. Why is that ? Certainly not because she's singing in a foreign language...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Not our best cultural export.

But I had a feeling you would say that considering the "blédardisation" of Montréal you (and a few others) have been describing. It oddly rapproche nos deux pays, in a way.

I'm in Gatineau which is a medium-sized city 200 km away but its demographic profile makes it a bit of a mini-Montréal. More so than most other cities in Québec.

About a year ago we picked up one of my kids' French (from France) friends at a Gatineau transit station, and when he got in the car he said: "That was an interesting experience that I wasn't expecting. For a minute I thought I was in the suburbs of Paris. With big snowbanks though."

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Can't speak for Québec, but in France these terms are not used. "Boomers" has become used a a slur recently, under American influence ("ok boomer!"), but most people use it now as an insult even when addressing people much younger than baby boomers.

The term "baby boomer" (pronounced "bébi boumeur") has long been used in France, since the 1960s probably, but the term "boomer" is recent here, and mostly a slur.

You can find "millennials" and "gen X" in a few journalist articles (mostly copying English press articles), but these terms are not in popular use. I couldn't imagine someone in real life saying "on a beaucoup de problèmes avec les gen-X parce qu'ils posent des conditions d'embauche irréalistes, etc). People just say "les jeunes", or "les nouvelles générations", or "les jeunes diplômés".

When we want to mock them we say "les djeuns" (with an English-sounding pronunciation, i.e. "j" pronounced as in English and pronouncing the final "s" as English speakers do, which sounds likes "lé djeunsse" in French). I like to use that term.

Do you guys say "les djeuns" mockingly in Québec? I suppose not. Probably too Franco-French.

Never heard it.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

He was comparing her to Prince, who is a musical genius. I don't care for Cyrus or Spears anymore that I care for Farmer.

The exemples that you linked just prove how much she has no voice (except the one they create for her in studio with double tracking) and that musically her material is generic and without any originality.

I prefer Mylène Farmer over Prince. I've never been that much into Prince (not my style really). Ditto for Cher, not my style. So you know, les goûts et les couleurs...

To deny the level of artistic research in Mylène Farmer's songs (both music, lyrics, AND the show/video clips, which are an essential part of it) is a bit baffling. Just because I don't like Prince I wouldn't say he had no talent. You seem to say Mylène Farmer has no talent just because you don't like her music.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

True. But even singing in English is not a guarantee. Take
Kylie Minogue, for exemple... she's huge in her native Australia as well as in the UK, her material is just as catchy as any average American female star, but yet she never made it in the US. Why is that ? Certainly not because she's singing in a foreign language...

There are all sorts of factors that explain why an artist will catch on and others will not, some of them quite mysterious.

My point is mostly that a) singing in English helps a lot and b) vocal and musical quality is not necessarily what makes you or breaks you.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I prefer Mylène Farmer over Prince. I've never been that much into Prince (not my style really). Ditto for Cher, not my style. So you know, les goûts et les couleurs...

To deny the level of artistic research in Mylène Farmer's songs (both music, lyrics, AND the show/video clips, which are an essential part of it) is a bit baffling. Just because I don't like Prince I wouldn't say he had no talent. You seem to say Mylène Farmer has no talent just because you don't like her music.

In my personal dummy's assessment, Mylène Farmer is probably ahead of Cher but behind Prince.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Theoretically there's more people alive today than every human who has ever lived. Give it 20 years, and this changes. I am not actually sure that 20 years from now Celine Dion will be more popular than Drake as the generations changeover. There's not enough Zoomers and Alphas today to move that needle. But it is coming.

Yeah, but most human beings who live today are neither Westerners, nor Western influenced (the way a country like South Africa can be). Do you frankly think people in China, India, or Burkina Faso listen to "Drake"? They don't even know what that is most likely.

Westerners are only 1/8th of the world.

In terms of audience, the most famous and listened to singers are probably going to be Indians.

This was apparently the most popular song in the Indian subcontinent last year. 820 million views. And many Indians still don't have internet or smartphones.

• Video Link

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Yeah, but most human beings who live today are neither Westerners, nor Western influenced (the way a country like South Africa can be). Do you frankly think people in China, India, or Burkina Faso listen to "Drake"? They don't even know what that is most likely.

Westerners are only 1/8th of the world.

In terms of audience, the most famous and listened to singers are probably going to be Indians.

This was apparently the most popular song in the Indian subcontinent last year. 820 million views. And many Indians still don't have internet or smartphones.

• Video Link

I actually like this.

One thing though is that western culture penetrates the non-western world a lot more than vice versa. Not all western culture breaks through of course, but some of it does. And when it does penetrate, like Michael Jackson or Brad Pitt (or even Céline Dion arguably), it takes these stars to another global level.