Highways in Canada

[FrAnKs]

My latest video of the Mississauga City Centre. Enjoy.

• Video Link

[Loco101]

I'm for having all of the Trans-Canada highway in every province twinned. The big issue is always cost and the fact that much of the TCH in both Newfoundland and Northern Ontario (Highways 17 and 11) have low traffic volumes.

I wish more people would push for the safety factor and also the economic factor as goods and people can travel more quickly and cheaply.

[jmt18325]

I'll continue to argue against that, and for strategic safety improvements where they're most needed.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I'm for having all of the Trans-Canada highway in every province twinned. The big issue is always cost and the fact that much of the TCH in both Newfoundland and Northern Ontario (Highways 17 and 11) have low traffic volumes.

I wish more people would push for the safety factor and also the economic factor as goods and people can travel more quickly and cheaply.

The shortest drive from Southern Ontario to Vancouver - the one I took when I did it - is a controlled-access, divided 4-lane freeway all the way.

You said it already - the low traffic volumes don't justify it. It would be ridiculous to choose to sink a (large) given amount of money into that black hole rather than invest it in infrastructure or mass-transit improvements in Toronto or Montreal or Vancouver, where it would actually serve a purpose.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by wave46

I wonder if a 2+1 highway with a center divider might be the ticket. It'll be much cheaper than 4 lanes the whole way and eliminates the unsafe passing and accidental crossing over that tends to lead to these fatalities.

FWIW, Quebec has chosen, on a not-yet-up-to-freeway-standards section of the 55 between the 20 and Trois-Rivières, to place a buzzer in the middle.

There's one two-lane road (the overpasses are all built already to accomodate the future second two-lane road, when it will finally become a full normal freeway) and you're crossing people going in the other direction. To pass someone, you have to endure going over the buzzer, but it's obviously tolerable. It's meant to prevent people from drifting into the other lane and dying in frontal crashes. I think it works.

It was a totally post-construction addition (by decades actually), after a few too many needless deaths in head-on crashes. I'm concluding the machine that does the shallow slots in the asphalt can easily be used anywhere, on existing roads - so Newfoundland could do that on their entire TCH.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I'm for having all of the Trans-Canada highway in every province twinned. The big issue is always cost and the fact that much of the TCH in both Newfoundland and Northern Ontario (Highways 17 and 11) have low traffic volumes.

I wish more people would push for the safety factor and also the economic factor as goods and people can travel more quickly and cheaply.

Originally Posted by jmt18325

I'll continue to argue against that, and for strategic safety improvements where they're most needed.

Start with the cities and towns. Bypass them with 4 lane divided routes. Then add to those bypasses.

That would greatly improve traffic flows.

[PEI highway guy]

good luck twinning the TCH on PEI, A great idea, not always practical everywhere in this country. Portions are twinned in NFLD, I am not sure if it is warranted all the way.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by PEI highway guy

good luck twinning the TCH on PEI, A great idea, not always practical everywhere in this country. Portions are twinned in NFLD, I am not sure if it is warranted all the way.

On PEI, even 4 lanes undivided would be good.

[MonctonRad]

I'm one of the greatest advocates out there for a fully twinned national highway system (and not just the main TCH - I'm talking about a system like the US interstate system), but even I can't see the value of twinning the TCH in PEI, and I'm from there........

They have been making some improvements to the TCH in PEI over the last decade (mostly straightening or realigning the ROW) so things have improved. The only section of the TCH on PEI which could arguably be twinned is the Charlottetown bypass.

The Confederation Bridge is only two lanes. If the bridge to PEI can't be divided, then why should the TCH on PEI be twinned.........

The situation in northern Ontario is vastly different though. You don't drive through PEI to get from here to there. The TCH routes through northern Ontario however bind eastern and western Canada together. It would be a supreme act of nation building to twin the highways up there. I know traffic volumes don't justify it, but safety (especially in the winter) does. Also, by making northern Ontario more accessible, this would likely provide economic benefits as well............

[milomilo]

My opinion is biased because of which part of the TCH I use, but I'd be much more concerned with getting the section west of Alberta though Kicking Horse and Rogers pass etc not only twinned, but improvements made so that there are fewer closures during the winter (and summer...). I don't know the traffic counts, but it always seems busy to me and the conditions obviously make accidents more common.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I'm one of the greatest advocates out there for a fully twinned national highway system (and not just the main TCH - I'm talking about a system like the US interstate system), but even I can't see the value of twinning the TCH in PEI, and I'm from there........

They have been making some improvements to the TCH in PEI over the last decade (mostly straightening or realigning the ROW) so things have improved. The only section of the TCH on PEI which could arguably be twinned is the Charlottetown bypass.

The Confederation Bridge is only two lanes. If the bridge to PEI can't be divided, then why should the TCH on PEI be twinned.........

The situation in northern Ontario is vastly different though. You don't drive through PEI to get from here to there. The TCH routes through northern Ontario however bind eastern and western Canada together. It would be a supreme act of nation building to twin the highways up there. I know traffic volumes don't justify it, but safety (especially in the winter) does. Also, by making northern Ontario more accessible, this would likely provide economic benefits as well............

I've always found that the lack of divided highways and ancillary overpasses and huge signage is part of the charm of PEI. It tells me immediately that I am in "another place". That and wooden road signs.

Though yeah, traffic on the Charlottetown bypass is pretty bad sometimes. That could use an upgrade.

Between the bridge and the outskirts of the city is rarely bad though.

[Taeolas]

IMO, a National Highway Program with an ultimate long term goal of a fully twinned highway from St Johns to Victoria and all Capitals in between (other than the territories, but maybe Whitehorse) is something that should be started up.

Actually TWINNING the TCH should be held off until numbers warrant it. But at the same time, the program could begin designing what such a twinned highway would be, figure out where bypasses might be needed, and start doing the land acquisitions now (and over the short to medium term). So that when the numbers/safety concerns warrant it, the twinning/bypass projects are basically shovel ready.

It would also open things up for overpass/bypass plans as well; making sure overpasses are built with a future twinning in mind (either by having two routes under the bridge already, or at least having the space ready so they can expand the bridge in the future; all dependant on how soon/far twinning looks for the area).

Those long term plans would also include looking into twinning the Confederation Bridge and the Canso Causeway; though likely those 'plans' would remain bullet points for decades to come.

If the right of ways turn out not to be needed, they could be sold back, or used for other developments (a rail or trail network for example, or just for parkland/reserved greenspace)

[vid]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Also, by making northern Ontario more accessible, this would likely provide economic benefits as well............

God, no. And undermine the myth that Northern Ontario is an economic basketcase that must rely on welfare from the south to exist? God, no!!!

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by vid

God, no. And undermine the myth that Northern Ontario is an economic basketcase that must rely on welfare from the south to exist? God, no!!!

I am confused. Are you saying more twinned highways would not be an economic benefit?

What Northern Ontario really needs is to have control of their own destiny.

[craner]

Originally Posted by milomilo

My opinion is biased because of which part of the TCH I use, but I'd be much more concerned with getting the section west of Alberta though Kicking Horse and Rogers pass etc not only twinned, but improvements made so that there are fewer closures during the winter (and summer...). I don't know the traffic counts, but it always seems busy to me and the conditions obviously make accidents more common.

I second this.

Interesting discussion. Put me in the camp that wants a fully twinned TCH.

[vid]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I am confused. Are you saying more twinned highways would not be an economic benefit?

What Northern Ontario really needs is to have control of their own destiny.

Oh, I'm mocking the people who oppose highway upgrades in this region because Toronto deserves everything since people live there.

I wonder if anyone has ever looked at accidents per 1,000 AADT and if the rates in the north are higher or lower than in the south? And how would that affect people's opinions on highway upgrades in this region? If you have 1 accident per week on a 5 km stretch of northern highway with 5,000 AADT, a stretch of highway with 400,000 AADT would need to have 80 accidents per week (one every two hours) to be "equally dangerous".

[jmt18325]

That's why I argue for evidence based (traffic counts and safety) improvements. Before this weekend, I was against an interchange at 1 and 16 in the immediate future. Now I'm for it. Get it done.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by vid

I wonder if anyone has ever looked at accidents per 1,000 AADT and if the rates in the north are higher or lower than in the south? And how would that affect people's opinions on highway upgrades in this region? If you have 1 accident per week on a 5 km stretch of northern highway with 5,000 AADT, a stretch of highway with 400,000 AADT would need to have 80 accidents per week (one every two hours) to be "equally dangerous".

This would actually be very useful information to have. I wonder if such stats exist somewhere in the bowels of the Department of transportation.

It would also be interesting to have information on the relative severity of accidents and the fatality rates. I imagine more accidents in northern Ontario are serious head on collisions while your typical wussy accident in downtown TO is simply a fender bender........

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by vid

If you have 1 accident per week on a 5 km stretch of northern highway with 5,000 AADT, a stretch of highway with 400,000 AADT would need to have 80 accidents per week (one every two hours) to be "equally dangerous".

Oh - and no, not really. Not at all in fact. The rate is far less important than the total in such a case.

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I imagine more accidents in northern Ontario are serious head on collisions while your typical wussy accident in downtown TO is simply a fender bender........

The severity is important - imagining the severity is less so.