Gas Prices

[L00per]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Is "several" really enough?

An 80% charge in 30 minutes isn't terrible, until you have to wait for 3 people in front of you take their half hour. And what do you do when you get to a charger, and the guy's taken off for a few hours and you can't get the spot no matter how long you are willing to wait?

In my opinion, no it's not enough, there need to be more.

Several gas stations are piloting L3 chargers, I'll post a link if I can find the article again. They don't want to lose the convenience store $ when they lose the gas customers.

You are right that a gas up is quite a lot faster at the moment than a charge - but see my post from yesterday about changing habits. Comparing possible EV charging lineup waits against 5 minutes for a gasup isn't quite an equal comparison. We just did a 1000km roadtrip and had to wait for a gas pump all 3 times we filled up (couldn't quite make it home on the 2nd tank). Waits can be expected with both sources, from time to time. The good news is that chargers can go just about anywhere, in a distributed fashion. Gas pumps can't.

Charging infrastructure can easily keep up with demand, if there's a will.

[Jimbo604]

Originally Posted by mcminsen

Jan.12 '19, my pics

Wow.. cheap gas. Amazing how much the price has changed in 5 months.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

Is there a cost to use these chargers? How many cars can charge at the same time?

Most of the slower, L2 chargers are free - although parking charges might apply based on where they are. L2 chargers work great for overnight charging.

Many of the DC Fast Chargers are currently free, but I think this is just during the introduction period. The ones that require payment end up being in the same ballpark, cost-per-mile-wise, as gas. These are the chargers you want to use when you're out on the road and you need to charge en route to your destination. BC has a pretty good and growing network of these all throughout the lower half of the province and on Vancouver Island. New chargers are being installed this year along the routes north to Prince George and Jasper.

Some people complain about the price of the fast chargers because they're spoiled by the incredibly cheap cost of plugging the car in at home. There's no equivalent to that for gas vehicles, for those you have no choice but to pay whatever the oil companies charge for every last drop that goes into your vehicle.

I don't have a problem with paying for DC Fast Charging - it's a very small percentage of my overall use so it's not that big a deal. And putting a price on them helps to keep them from being swarmed by opportunists who go out of their way for free stuff. I'm more than happy to pay a price for the availability of a charge when I'm out on the road and I really need it.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I don't have a problem with paying for DC Fast Charging - it's a very small percentage of my overall use so it's not that big a deal. And putting a price on them helps to keep them from being swarmed by opportunists who go out of their way for free stuff. I'm more than happy to pay a price for the availability of a charge when I'm out on the road and I really need it.

Some are already pay, but I can't tell what the logic is or who is deciding they are pay stations.

That said I think approximately double the residential cost of electricity is a good benchmark for fast charging. Still cheaper than gas, but the user/BC Hydro can make a little cash.

Lots more L3 on the way:

https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/alternative-fuels/fuel-facts/ecoenergy/21738

Interesting that BC MOTI is now getting in on the action, in addition to BC Hydro, and of course municipalities.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Some people complain about the price of the fast chargers because they're spoiled by the incredibly cheap cost of plugging the car in at home. There's no equivalent to that for gas vehicles, for those you have no choice but to pay whatever the oil companies charge for every last drop that goes into your vehicle.

I don't have a problem with paying for DC Fast Charging - it's a very small percentage of my overall use so it's not that big a deal. And putting a price on them helps to keep them from being swarmed by opportunists who go out of their way for free stuff. I'm more than happy to pay a price for the availability of a charge when I'm out on the road and I really need it.

Right - compared to $1.70 a litre, $8-12 for an 80% charge seems like a steal.

[misher]

https://www.vancourier.com/b-c-mandated-...o-14-cents-per-litre-to-price-1.23831700

B.C.-mandated ’boutique gas’ is adding up to 14 cents per litre to price
A senior gasoline analyst indicates the B.C. government is responsible for our province having the highest gasoline prices in the country.

Dan McTeague, petroleum analyst for GasBuddy.com says the B.C. government’s requirement for low carbon fuel is the culprit behind Metro Vancouver’s sky-high gas prices. CTV News reports that McTeague says the cost for refineries to produce the fuel to B.C.’s specifications adds between eight and 14 cents more per litre.

“If you want someone to make your boutique gasoline, which only B.C. has, then you’re going to pay,” said McTeague.

Metro Vancouver gas prices have soared to new heights, smashing records more than once already this year.

McTeague is referring to the Greenhouse Gas Reduction Act which came into effect back in 2009.

Another less understood factor relates to the provinces demand exceeds supply and B.C. is forced to import more expensive fuel from the western United States.

[L00per]

Originally Posted by L00per

Several gas stations are piloting L3 chargers, I'll post a link if I can find the article again. They don't want to lose the convenience store $ when they lose the gas customers.

Found it:

https://www.petro-canada.ca/en/personal/fuel/alternative-fuels/ev-fast-charge-network

https://globalnews.ca/news/4976930/petro-canada-fast-charging-electric-vehicle-stations/

[s211]

According to a Vaughan Palmer presentation earlier today, the Terms of Reference for the gas price study by the utility commission expressly excludes provincial taxes or policies from being analyzed/reviewed/considered.

Not sure if that's already been mentioned here already, but what a freaking farce.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by s211

According to a Vaughan Palmer presentation earlier today, the Terms of Reference for the gas price study by the utility commission expressly excludes provincial taxes or policies from being analyzed/reviewed/considered.

Not sure if that's already been mentioned here already, but what a freaking farce.

An argument could be made that we know exactly how much of an impact on the price at the pump various provincial and regional taxes represent. Meanwhile, there's no credible explanation why a 1 cent per liter increase in the carbon tax triggered a 40 cent spike at the pumps, as but one recent example.

[Sheba]

'Perfect storm' of high gas prices and rebates driving B.C.'s EV explosion

A economics professor at the University of Calgary says the combination of high gas prices and government rebate are set to trigger an explosion in the number of electric vehicles (EVs) on B.C. roads.

"It's the perfect storm in British Columbia right now," said Blake Shaffer. "You've got very high fuel prices — $1.70 at the pump — while at the same time you've got two levels of government offering pretty compelling incentives."

On May 1, the federal government started offering a $5,000 rebate on the purchase of an EV. That's in addition to the $5,000 already available through the provincial government's Clean Energy Vehicles for B.C., or CEVforBC program.

In B.C., EVs already account for 15 per cent of the car market share, almost twice the national average.

In a new policy paper published by the University of Calgary School of Public Policy, Shaffer crunched the numbers around the economics of EVs and rebates, finding that drivers in B.C. stand to save a lot of money if they choose an EV over a popular model internal combustion engine vehicle — and not only because of the thousands of dollars in incentives.

According to his calculations, driving 100 kilometres in B.C. in a top selling electric vehicle will cost between $2 to $4.

That's less than the estimated $12.07 it would cost to drive the same distance in a Honda Civic Sedan, the top selling car in Canada. And it's a lot less than the $18.02 it would cost in a Ford F-150, Canada's top selling truck.

Although EVs cost more than similar model gas powered vehicles, Shaffer figures that with fuel savings and the rebates combined, it would take only two years to pay back the extra expense.

...

[retro_orange]

Originally Posted by Sheba

'Perfect storm' of high gas prices and rebates driving B.C.'s EV explosion

It's hilarious because this is the opposite intended effect that Alberta oil wanted when they arbitrarily jacked up prices. They intended people to get outraged to push for the pipeline but instead people are more quickly reducing their reliance on gasoline for the indefinite future thus having even less reason to support the pipeline.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by misher

https://www.vancourier.com/b-c-mandated-...o-14-cents-per-litre-to-price-1.23831700

2009? Damn those BC Liberals!

[GMD]

Originally Posted by retro_orange

It's hilarious because this is the opposite intended effect that Alberta oil wanted when they arbitrarily jacked up prices. They intended people to get outraged to push for the pipeline but instead people are more quickly reducing their reliance on gasoline for the indefinite future thus having even less reason to support the pipeline.

It's funny, but also deadly serious for Alberta. I drive to work and EV volume seems to grow by the day, meanwhile the buses, the UPS trucks, the garbage trucks, etc. are all running on CNG. It will take a while, but I'd say the writing is on the wall for oil as a transportation fuel, it's no longer a question of if, but when. Who is going to invest in expanded oil sands production over the long haul under these conditions? - even if they build 10 pipelines to the coast.

My next car will be EV for sure, won't pay off overnight, but in 5-10 years, for sure it will save money, probably faster by the time I need to get one with battery prices falling and economies of scale kicking in.

[retro_orange]

Meanwhile northern Alberta is on fire again, threatening communities again. I wonder how many of the thousands of people who are currently evacuated who voted for Kenney are regretting it. Maybe Kenney can find some way to use his new 'War Room' to blame the Environmentalists for the fires.

[WestCoastEcho]

Originally Posted by GMD

It's funny, but also deadly serious for Alberta. I drive to work and EV volume seems to grow by the day, meanwhile the buses, the UPS trucks, the garbage trucks, etc. are all running on CNG. It will take a while, but I'd say the writing is on the wall for oil as a transportation fuel, it's no longer a question of if, but when. Who is going to invest in expanded oil sands production over the long haul under these conditions? - even if they build 10 pipelines to the coast.

My next car will be EV for sure, won't pay off overnight, but in 5-10 years, for sure it will save money, probably faster by the time I need to get one with battery prices falling and economies of scale kicking in.

There are still other industries that depend on oil to function.

For example, demand for low-sulphur diesel is expected to massively spike next year; the new IMO 2020 regulations regarding ship emissions and fuel quality standard come into effect, which means ships will either need expensive engine exhaust cleaning retrofits, or burn ultra-low sulphur fuel as an alternative. Funny enough, the best feedstock to produce the ultra-low sulphur fuel is the heavy oil from the oilsands...

[s211]

Originally Posted by retro_orange

Meanwhile northern Alberta is on fire again, threatening communities again. I wonder how many of the thousands of people who are currently evacuated who voted for Kenney are regretting it. Maybe Kenney can find some way to use his new 'War Room' to blame the Environmentalists for the fires.

That was uncalled for.

[bluefox]

Originally Posted by s211

That was uncalled for.

Maybe a bit blunt, but the overarching point isn't wrong -- that populist "jobs, jobs, jobs" rhetoric is often at odds with the environment, and especially so in the case of Alberta voters looking to go back to the glory days of oil and gas industry supremacy not realizing/caring about/connecting the impact of said industry on climate change and its consequences.

You can still point this out and at the same time be hopeful that folks there stay safe.

[GMD]

Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho

There are still other industries that depend on oil to function.

For example, demand for low-sulphur diesel is expected to massively spike next year; the new IMO 2020 regulations regarding ship emissions and fuel quality standard come into effect, which means ships will either need expensive engine exhaust cleaning retrofits, or burn ultra-low sulphur fuel as an alternative. Funny enough, the best feedstock to produce the ultra-low sulphur fuel is the heavy oil from the oilsands...

Sure, the shipping switch is a one-off that will help for a while, and out of all the uses for oil some will be replaced sooner and some later, but the point is the trend, and the limited need for investment in additional oil sands production when you look out 10-20 years (which you need to, to get a payoff on an oil sands project).

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho

There are still other industries that depend on oil to function.

For example, demand for low-sulphur diesel is expected to massively spike next year; the new IMO 2020 regulations regarding ship emissions and fuel quality standard come into effect, which means ships will either need expensive engine exhaust cleaning retrofits, or burn ultra-low sulphur fuel as an alternative. Funny enough, the best feedstock to produce the ultra-low sulphur fuel is the heavy oil from the oilsands...

Hmm, not according to the Financial Post or Global:

'A devaluation of oilsands assets': New rules on sulphur will make a fifth of output uneconomic within two years

From the lack of available pipeline capacity to the potential adoption of electric cars, there is no shortage of threats facing the Canadian oilsands. But the latest menace lies in a seemingly innocuous and highly common element: sulphur.

Long a byproduct of the heavy oil industry, sulphur is so common that it’s become a part of the general landscape at mining sites such as Syncrude Canada Ltd.’s Mildred Lake facility (now majority owned by Suncor Energy Inc.), where massive blocks of sulphur byproduct are stacked several storeys high, like a kind of yellow-stained low-rise apartment complex.

But global regulators are now trying to stem sulphur-dioxide emissions in a widespread crackdown, one that could shrink the market for heavy crude and force Canadian oilsands companies to stomach an even steeper discount for their product...

...CERI released a report at the end of July that found as many as 574,000 barrels per day of oilsands production, or roughly 20 per cent of unconventional oil projects, would not be economic under a scenario where sulphur levels are lowered to the new IMO standards...

https://business.financialpost.com/commo...ate-threats-to-canadas-oilsands-industry

New marine fuel standards expected to tank oilsands crude prices in 2020

Canada’s oilsands industry, hard hit by a price storm this year, could be sailing straight into a pricing typhoon stirred up by new fuel standards for the international shipping industry.

The tighter pollution rules by the International Maritime Organization, dubbed IMO 2020, are set to take effect Jan. 1, 2020, resulting in the sulphur content limit of “bunker” fuel on ships dropping from 3.5 per cent to just 0.5 per cent.

The switch is expected to wallop prices for heavy oil containing high levels of sulphur — exactly the kind of the raw bitumen that makes up about half of Canada’s 4.4 million barrels per day of crude oil production...
https://globalnews.ca/news/4259018/2020-marine-fuel-standards-oilsands-crude-price/

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by GMD

Sure, the shipping switch is a one-off that will help for a while, and out of all the uses for oil some will be replaced sooner and some later, but the point is the trend, and the limited need for investment in additional oil sands production when you look out 10-20 years (which you need to, to get a payoff on an oil sands project).

Or longer for a pipeline...