Gas Prices

[WestCoastEcho]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

BC Hydro is spouting the praises of buying an EV and all the cost savings vs gasoline but what they don't tell you is the high cost of buying one and all the interest you will be paying on your car loan. The total cost of ownership has to be taken into account. The buyer also has to know the limitations of an EV. Great for short trips in the city but not great on road trips across mountain ranges, especially if you don't fancy stopping somewhere for hours to recharge your EV.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out for the average consumer. Most of my friends are not driving around in $50,000+ cars nor could they really afford to. At this point is seems like a novelty car for the wealthy. Time will tell.

Depends if your vehicle supports DC fast charging or you are at a Level 2 charger.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

BC Hydro is spouting the praises of buying an EV and all the cost savings vs gasoline but what they don't tell you is the high cost of buying one and all the interest you will be paying on your car loan. The total cost of ownership has to be taken into account. The buyer also has to know the limitations of an EV. Great for short trips in the city but not great on road trips across mountain ranges, especially if you don't fancy stopping somewhere for hours to recharge your EV.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out for the average consumer. Most of my friends are not driving around in $50,000+ cars nor could they really afford to. At this point is seems like a novelty car for the wealthy. Time will tell.

Used cars sound more like what you'd be after anyways. If you don't assume that batteries will crap out right away, then they're a pretty decent value now.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

BC Hydro is spouting the praises of buying an EV and all the cost savings vs gasoline but what they don't tell you is the high cost of buying one and all the interest you will be paying on your car loan. The total cost of ownership has to be taken into account. The buyer also has to know the limitations of an EV. Great for short trips in the city but not great on road trips across mountain ranges, especially if you don't fancy stopping somewhere for hours to recharge your EV.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out for the average consumer. Most of my friends are not driving around in $50,000+ cars nor could they really afford to. At this point is seems like a novelty car for the wealthy. Time will tell.

How is that “high cost” different from the cost of any other car loan. If I buy a Tesla Model 3 or BMW 3-Series that’s going to be roughly the same, only I won’t get any rebates on the BMW.

[logan5]

All the big car companies are investing heavily in electric vehicles now. As more EV's are produced, economies of scale will start to kick in, which will continue to push costs down even further. Costs are trending towards price parity with ICE vehicles in as early as 2022 (3 years!).

In December 2018, BloombergNEF published the results of its ninth Battery Price Survey, a series that begin in 2012 looking back at data from as early as 2010. The annual price survey has become an important benchmark in the industry and the fall in prices has been nothing short of remarkable: the volume weighted average battery pack fell 85% from 2010-18, reaching an average of $176/kWh.

https://about.bnef.com/blog/behind-scenes-take-lithium-ion-battery-prices/

Now another year has gone by and BNEF has adjusted its forecast once again. 2022 is now the year it believes electric cars will become price competitive with cars powered by gasoline or diesel engines.

Why the rapid shortening of the projected timeline? Plunging battery costs. For a midsize US car in 2015, the battery made up more than 57% of the total cost. This year, it’s 33%. By 2025, the battery will be only 20% of total vehicle cost, according to BNEF.

It says price parity will come first for large vehicles in the EU and then spread throughout the transportation sector. A report in ThinkProgress adds that BNEF also forecasts the cost of electric motors and powertrain control systems will drop by a third in the next few years as more of those components are produced by manufacturers worldwide and economies of scale kick in.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/17/bne...titive-in-2020-as-battery-costs-plummet/

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

BC Hydro is spouting the praises of buying an EV and all the cost savings vs gasoline but what they don't tell you is the high cost of buying one and all the interest you will be paying on your car loan. The total cost of ownership has to be taken into account. The buyer also has to know the limitations of an EV. Great for short trips in the city but not great on road trips across mountain ranges, especially if you don't fancy stopping somewhere for hours to recharge your EV.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out for the average consumer. Most of my friends are not driving around in $50,000+ cars nor could they really afford to. At this point is seems like a novelty car for the wealthy. Time will tell.

How many times are you going to post the same garbage and not accept the facts that refute what you say?

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

BC Hydro is spouting the praises of buying an EV and all the cost savings vs gasoline but what they don't tell you is the high cost of buying one and all the interest you will be paying on your car loan. The total cost of ownership has to be taken into account.

That's right. You pay more for an EV up front but you pay a lot less to run it. Since electricity is so much cheaper than gas I've saved over $2000 over about a year and a half with my EV - and that's comparing it to my previous car, a Prius C - pretty much the most fuel efficient gas-powered car you can buy. And my EV has no need for regular service, only coolant and brake line flushes about every 5 years and wear items like tires and windshield wipers. (Note that brakes are NOT a normal wear item because almost all deceleration is done by regenerating energy back into the battery). I figure that even if it only lasts me about 10 years (roughly the average length of time I've owned my cars over the past 4 decades) it'll have easily recouped the additional purchase cost.

Originally Posted by Trainguy

The buyer also has to know the limitations of an EV. Great for short trips in the city but not great on road trips across mountain ranges, especially if you don't fancy stopping somewhere for hours to recharge your EV.

Yes, recharge times are problematic. But in all other respects my trip to Banff and back last October went just fine and wasn't much different than it would have been in a gas vehicle. In fact I lost at lot more time when the road through Kootenay National Park was closed for a day than I did due to having to charge. Much of my charging was done overnight while I slept.

If you're in such a big hurry that you can't afford the time to charge while you eat lunch or take a break then yes, you might well be better off flying.

[L00per]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

...Yes, recharge times are problematic. ... Much of my charging was done overnight while I slept.

If you're in such a big hurry that you can't afford the time to charge while you eat lunch or take a break then yes, you might well be better off flying.

This. People mindsets around "the car goes ding, I fill it up" need to shift to one of charging - regardless of how long - whenever you can. This could be at home, at the store/mall/whereever they are, or at a charger enroute on a longer road trip.

Let's say I'm driving from Kamloops to Vancouver and a full charge doesn't give me enough range to make the trip, but know I can charge when I'm there. I could stop in Merritt or Hope for a few minutes, grab a coffee and have a bathroom break, and then I'm off. No need to sit there and completely charge.

This does require some thought and planning, but it's not an immense challenge. Things will get easier as battery capacity increases, charge times decrease, and the availability of chargers goes up.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by L00per

This. People mindsets around "the car goes ding, I fill it up" need to shift to one of charging - regardless of how long - whenever you can. This could be at home, at the store/mall/whereever they are, or at a charger enroute on a longer road trip.

Let's say I'm driving from Kamloops to Vancouver and a full charge doesn't give me enough range to make the trip, but know I can charge when I'm there. I could stop in Merritt or Hope for a few minutes, grab a coffee and have a bathroom break, and then I'm off. No need to sit there and completely charge.

This does require some thought and planning, but it's not an immense challenge. Things will get easier as battery capacity increases, charge times decrease, and the availability of chargers goes up.

But that "smartphone" mindset assumes there's a charger in Merritt or Hope (if not every pit stop along the way). If the GreeNDP is committed to making the province 100% electric, then stations needs to be as commonplace as power sockets, if not more.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by L00per

This. People mindsets around "the car goes ding, I fill it up" need to shift to one of charging - regardless of how long - whenever you can. This could be at home, at the store/mall/whereever they are, or at a charger enroute on a longer road trip.

Let's say I'm driving from Kamloops to Vancouver and a full charge doesn't give me enough range to make the trip, but know I can charge when I'm there. I could stop in Merritt or Hope for a few minutes, grab a coffee and have a bathroom break, and then I'm off. No need to sit there and completely charge.

This does require some thought and planning, but it's not an immense challenge. Things will get easier as battery capacity increases, charge times decrease, and the availability of chargers goes up.

Yea, I'm not sure why some posters seem to think its more convenient to go out of your way to find a gas station, rather than just plug in your vehicle when it sits at home overnight.

Sure, if you park on the street it's not quite that convenient, but millions of urban/suburban Canadians have their own parking.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

But that "smartphone" mindset assumes there's a charger in Merritt or Hope (if not every pit stop along the way). If the GreeNDP is committed to making the province 100% electric, then stations needs to be as commonplace as power sockets, if not more.

It's a pretty good assumption. There's already several high powered chargers in Kamloops, Merritt and Hope.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

It's a pretty good assumption. There's already several high powered chargers in Kamloops, Merritt and Hope.

Touche. In that case, there doesn't appear to be a problem.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

It's a pretty good assumption. There's already several high powered chargers in Kamloops, Merritt and Hope.

Is there a cost to use these chargers? How many cars can charge at the same time?

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

It's a pretty good assumption. There's already several high powered chargers in Kamloops, Merritt and Hope.

Is "several" really enough?

There are 2 CHAdeMO chargers in Hope, 4 at the Summit, 2 in Merrit, and 2 in Kamloops.

There are more nozzles at a 6 pump gas station, and a fill-up takes 5 minutes.

It's a great number while nobody needs them. But if the number of EVs doubles, is it enough?

An 80% charge in 30 minutes isn't terrible, until you have to wait for 3 people in front of you take their half hour. And what do you do when you get to a charger, and the guy's taken off for a few hours and you can't get the spot no matter how long you are willing to wait?

My office building has several charging spots in it, but they are starting to get constantly used by the same cars every day. What happens when you are the 5th guy who works in a building with 4 chargers and 4 other EV drivers? It could take years before building management decides to spend on another charger.

[logan5]

It will be fairly easy to keep up with demand for charging stations. They only take days to install.

There's not a lot of information on costs to install a public level 3 charger, but I found a couple of articles saying 50 000 U.S. Not a lot for big corporations like McDonald's or Save-on group.

[WestCoastEcho]

Originally Posted by logan5

It will be fairly easy to keep up with demand for charging stations. They only take days to install.

There's not a lot of information on costs to install a public level 3 charger, but I found a couple of articles saying 50 000 U.S. Not a lot for big corporations like McDonald's or Save-on group.

It might be a small ancillary revenue source and a good way to encourage people to shop if you happen to install a couple of chargers and you own a fast food joint with a parking lot, or a mall...

[WestCoastEcho]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Is "several" really enough?

There are 2 CHAdeMO chargers in Hope, 4 at the Summit, 2 in Merrit, and 2 in Kamloops.

There are more nozzles at a 6 pump gas station, and a fill-up takes 5 minutes.

It's a great number while nobody needs them. But if the number of EVs doubles, is it enough?

An 80% charge in 30 minutes isn't terrible, until you have to wait for 3 people in front of you take their half hour. And what do you do when you get to a charger, and the guy's taken off for a few hours and you can't get the spot no matter how long you are willing to wait?

My office building has several charging spots in it, but they are starting to get constantly used by the same cars every day. What happens when you are the 5th guy who works in a building with 4 chargers and 4 other EV drivers? It could take years before building management decides to spend on another charger.

You are also ignoring the other, much more common standard, which is J1772 or CCS. Chargers using this standard are far more common, checking the ChargeHub map, in BC.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by logan5

It will be fairly easy to keep up with demand for charging stations. They only take days to install.

There's not a lot of information on costs to install a public level 3 charger, but I found a couple of articles saying 50 000 U.S. Not a lot for big corporations like McDonald's or Save-on group.

Phase 2 of the NRCan deployments suggests they are about $50k Cdn to install, though I'm not sure these are 100% funded by NRCan.

Also worth noting a single hydrogen station is $1M:

https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/alternative-fuels/fuel-facts/ecoenergy/21738

It's not really in any particular order, but looks like about 90 more fast charging points coming to BC. Nothing to sneeze at.

As for lineups, the only things being lined up on a regular basis are certain Tesla Superchargers in California, but they are being rapidly deployed as well.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Is "several" really enough?

There are 2 CHAdeMO chargers in Hope, 4 at the Summit, 2 in Merrit, and 2 in Kamloops.

There are more nozzles at a 6 pump gas station, and a fill-up takes 5 minutes.

It's a great number while nobody needs them. But if the number of EVs doubles, is it enough?

An 80% charge in 30 minutes isn't terrible, until you have to wait for 3 people in front of you take their half hour. And what do you do when you get to a charger, and the guy's taken off for a few hours and you can't get the spot no matter how long you are willing to wait?

My office building has several charging spots in it, but they are starting to get constantly used by the same cars every day. What happens when you are the 5th guy who works in a building with 4 chargers and 4 other EV drivers? It could take years before building management decides to spend on another charger.

Look up plugshare

Frankly, unless it's a DC fast charger, I'd expect someone to be able to provide their own charging day-to-day.

All parking spots should get wired for 240V 30A power in my opinion. All streetlights near street parking should have chargers installed. Charging needs to be pervasive to catch all the edge cases, but it's not that difficult. In my opinion BC Hydro should install tens-of-thousands of chargers, and setup a system for selling power directly.

Chargers are essentially just fancy extension cords with automatic grounding checks. The hard part will be making sure that parts of the grid don't get overloaded.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

Look up plugshare

Frankly, unless it's a DC fast charger, I'd expect someone to be able to provide their own charging day-to-day.

All parking spots should get wired for 240V 30A power in my opinion. All streetlights near street parking should have chargers installed. Charging needs to be pervasive to catch all the edge cases, but it's not that difficult. In my opinion BC Hydro should install tens-of-thousands of chargers, and setup a system for selling power directly.

Chargers are essentially just fancy extension cords with automatic grounding checks. The hard part will be making sure that parts of the grid don't get overloaded.

True, but devices already exist to limit power output on EVSEs based on whatever criteria you might want. It's more expensive to network them with LTE or WiFi, but might be required in some areas for this very reason.

[L00per]

Originally Posted by WestCoastEcho

You are also ignoring the other, much more common standard, which is J1772 or CCS. Chargers using this standard are far more common, checking the ChargeHub map, in BC.

And while proprietary, there are Tesla superchargers everywhere. Given that they're a high/highest percentage of EVs out there, this capacity also needs to be factored in.