Winnipeg Jets

[Biff]

^^^ I agree in that people are too fixated in the whole arena size/revenue from tickets sold. That is small potatoes compared to the merchandising and TV/Radio contracts and licensing as you noted.

People need to realize this.

[wags_in_the_peg]

Originally Posted by Biff

^^^ I agree in that people are too fixated in the whole arena size/revenue from tickets sold. That is small potatoes compared to the merchandising and TV/Radio contracts and licensing as you noted.

People need to realize this.

on the subject of Merchandise...when I was at the Vikings game last week, I estimate 20,000 of the 64,000 fans were wearing #4 Favre jerseys at what about $150 a pop? Does $300,000 pay his salary? No but it helps.... Does it all got to the Vikings org.. No, but it helps. Bottom line merchandising can be huge in this day and age.

[trueviking]

^ biff, i dont think it is....the NHL is a gate drivven league (seats, merchandise and luxury suites)....on average each team makes only 11 million dollars total from local and national television sources....that is small potatoes compared to arena revenues.......the phoenix coyotes only make 3 million from TV.

the number of households that local TV broadcasts reach in the US is staggering....

by far the largest percentage of televsion reveues to the NHL comes from TSN and HNIC...almost 1/3 of all TV revenues in the NHL come from the CBC....adding more canadian franchises to that could only help increase that....it would certainly do more than a team in KC would.

http://www.fromtherink.com/2009/6/9/...ngs-impact-the

http://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/article/62238

[grumpy old man]

When talking TV and radio revenues one does not look necessarily at total available market. I mean that's nice, but if a US city has a population of 5 million but only 50k actually watch any given game then that is the market they base ad sales on.

I'm certain Winnipeg, Manitoba, Nwt Ont will surpass many US cities in eyes watching. Indeed Phoenix does not even have a TV contract.

[ILYR]

Originally Posted by Cow-garian

wow you guys are really throwing around A LOT of old and (IMO) insignificant statistics.

As a COMPLETE outsider to the issue looking from the outside in, I don't think the problem is whether Winnipeg has the resources to start a club or maintain a satisfactory attendance but rather the issue is that (just like the NFL) ticket sales are only a fraction of NHL revenue.

What Bettman and the rest of the owners care about is whether relocating/starting a team in Winnipeg will yield higher (significant) T.V contracts, Radio, miscellaneous endorsements and fact for the matter is; the answer is no.

Frankly, the Ontario southern belt, Kansas City, Seattle, etc.... even though might have more obstacles in front of them will yield more to the NHL than appeasing a small city of 750,000 (or small regional market for that matter)

In saying that I HOPE THE JETS COME BACK HOME SOME DAY!!!!

I am glad to see you are hoping a the Jets return, however, I will have to disagree on you comment regarding "old and (IMO) insignificant statistics". As trueviking has also noted gate revenues are very important in the NHL. TV contracts are a smaller portion of revenue for most teams. In fact wasn't it Bettman's goal when he expanded to the sunbelt, to get a national TV contract in the states. Ten years later and he is still waiting. The reality is it likely never will. Football, baseball, basketball, and NASCAR are way ahead of hockey in the US as far as TV. Comparing the NHL TV contracts with that of the NFL is just not possible. Also i can see a team in southern Ontario increasing TV revenues more than a team in Winnipeg, but I don't see any reason why Kansas City or Seattle would. They may be bigger markets, but are they bigger hockey markets?

Thus, the attendance and capacity arguments surrounding the MTS centre are not at all old, nor insignificant (IMO).

[Pegger5]

Originally Posted by trueviking

sigh...how do i always get sucked in....

any proof of your assertion about winnipeg's economy?...or are you just talking out of your ass again?

Winnipeg’s key economic indicators comparison 1994-2008 (since the jets left):

population:
1994: 676 000
2008: 733 000

population growth:
1994: 1600
2008: 10 000

average house value:
1994: $84 000 (Canadian average $158 000) 53% of the canadian average
2008: $191 000 (Canadian average $275 000) 70% of the canadian average

total value of building permits issued:
1994: $300 million
2008: $ 1 billion

housing starts:
1994: 972
2008: 3400

average household income:
1994: $43 000 (Canadian average $49 000) 87%
2008: $72 000 (Canadian average $70 500) 102%

unemployment rate
1994: 10.4% (Canadian average 9.5%)
2008: 4.3% (Canadian average 6%) (3rd in Canada)

total employment
1994: 318 000
2008: 400 000

retail sales:
1994: $4.3 million
2008: $9.3 million

GDP per capita
1994: $21 100 (Canada $26 700) 79% of the canadian average
2008: $44 500 (Canada $46 400) 96% of the canadian average

2008 economic growth 3.9% (third among Canadian cities)



Corporate presence in Winnipeg compared to other Canadian cities:

Corporate head offices; Top 500 largest publically traded companies (2008):

Winnipeg: 12
Edmonton: 7
Ottawa: 7
Quebec City: 2
Hamilton: 1

Corporate head offices; Companies of all sizes (2005):

Edmonton: 157
Winnipeg: 129
Ottawa: 101

Corporate head offices; total employment (2005):

Winnipeg: 6 890
Ottawa: 4 667
Edmonton: 3 428

Excellent TrueViking. this shows true comaprisons to NHL markets like Edmonton & Ottawa... Winnipeg is a changed city and per capita is now the fastest growing city in Canada based on last weeks Stats Canada results..
We have double the corporate employees as Edmonton !
I also did a post about this about a year ago with actuals as well comparing the two cities corporate employees...

[flatlander]

^^^Just out of curiosity what was the source for that data?

[hexrae]

Yes, I am checking for census data. I am thinking that is your source?

[Biff]

Originally Posted by trueviking

^ biff, i dont think it is....the NHL is a gate driven league (seats, merchandise and luxury suites)....on average each team makes only 11 million dollars total from local and national television sources....that is small potatoes compared to arena revenues.......the phoenix coyotes only make 3 million from TV.

Thanks for correcting me, i guess i was and always seem to think of everything in terms of the NFL as a template - which is a poor example (the best run sports league in the world, or most profitable at least). I forget that the NHL doesn't have that big US tv contract.

[Pegger5]

Originally Posted by flatlander

^^^Just out of curiosity what was the source for that data?

My comments were based on this article:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/st...-manitoba.html

Saying that, I was not totally correct but it does state Winnipeg is growing much faster the National average..

[Andy6]

The problem is that Winnipeg is a poor draw in U.S. cities and the presence of obscure Canadian cities in the NHL is a stumbling block to big-league status and TV deals in the U.S. That has always been the issue and I guess only time will tell if circumstances have changed enough to make the NHL see things differently. But none of this really matters in the absence of a potential owner.

[drew]

^ I think recent history has proven that with or without obscure Canadian cities or larger southern US cities, "big-league" TV deals for the NHL in the states are a hard sell. I don't see how this could be used against Winnipeg at this point. The NHL needs to build and bolster its brand in the traditional markets (especially the vacant Canadian ones).

[Pegger5]

Originally Posted by Andy6

The problem is that Winnipeg is a poor draw in U.S. cities and the presence of obscure Canadian cities in the NHL is a stumbling block to big-league status and TV deals in the U.S. That has always been the issue and I guess only time will tell if circumstances have changed enough to make the NHL see things differently. But none of this really matters in the absence of a potential owner.

You are kidding me right? Have you not watched the news lately?

There is an ownership group, so it does matter..

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/stor...-winnipeg.html

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by drew

^ I think recent history has proven that with or without obscure Canadian cities or larger southern US cities, "big-league" TV deals for the NHL in the states are a hard sell. I don't see how this could be used against Winnipeg at this point. The NHL needs to build and bolster its brand in the traditional markets (especially the vacant Canadian ones).

I agree but the same thing happened after the 1967 expansion and the NHL was still unenthusiastic about Canadian teams for decades afterward, even though the coveted U.S. recognition was never forthcoming. Hope springs eternal, it seems, when it comes to dreams of U.S. TV money. Maybe the changes in the TV market and 40+ years of failure have finally changed their minds, though.

[ILYR]

Originally Posted by Andy6

The problem is that Winnipeg is a poor draw in U.S. cities and the presence of obscure Canadian cities in the NHL is a stumbling block to big-league status and TV deals in the U.S.

There are 6 canadian teams and 24 American teams. Of those 6 canadian teams only 3 could be remotely considered obscure to American cities. Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver are by no means obscure (this is no disrespect to Ottawa, Edmonton and Calgary). The lack of a TV contract in the US is not because of 3 "obscure" canadian teams, its because of a general lack of national interest in the sport. It is more likely that "obscure" american teams bring down lucrative TV deals in Canada. Who really in Canada is excited to see games with Nashville, Columbus, Phoenix, Florida, Atlanta ... Hockey is strong in Canada and the northern US states. That is a simple fact, and nothing against those southern cities.

[dennis]

Were the Winnipeg Jets a draw with Minnesota Northstar fans when the two played head to head against each other in Minneapolis?

[jimsabo21]

Originally Posted by dennis

Were the Winnipeg Jets a draw with Minnesota Northstar fans when the two played head to head against each other in Minneapolis?

Not really, and the NorthStars weren't a really big draw in Winnipeg either.

Ironically, the closest city to us geographically was never in our division, so a rivalry was never really built. The Jets were always in the Smyth dvision wth Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver and Los Angeles.

I think their very last year, they were moved to the central division which included Chicago, St-Louis, Detroit, Dallas and Toronto.

[ILYR]

Originally Posted by jimsabo21

Not really, and the NorthStars weren't a really big draw in Winnipeg either.

Ironically, the closest city to us geographically was never in our division, so a rivalry was never really built. The Jets were always in the Smyth dvision wth Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver and Los Angeles.

I think their very last year, they were moved to the central division which included Chicago, St-Louis, Detroit, Dallas and Toronto.

Actually they were in the Norris division in 1981-82.

[grumpy old man]

Originally Posted by dennis

Were the Winnipeg Jets a draw with Minnesota Northstar fans when the two played head to head against each other in Minneapolis?

The annual boxing day game was always SRO. In Winnipeg anyway.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by Andy6

The problem is that Winnipeg is a poor draw in U.S. cities and the presence of obscure Canadian cities in the NHL is a stumbling block to big-league status and TV deals in the U.S. That has always been the issue and I guess only time will tell if circumstances have changed enough to make the NHL see things differently. But none of this really matters in the absence of a potential owner.

About the only way the NHL is going to get on US network television is if the NHL pays someone to show their games, NHL hockey ratings in the US fall somewhere between women's roller derby and curling.