Winnipeg Jets

[grumpy old man]

Originally Posted by Dalreg

Huh? what are you smoking? What else would you like to use? ficticious made up numbers? Or actual facts and statistics?

Instead of being an asshat simply ask if you need help.

My point was the NHL average = X and Winnipeg = Y. But where did that place Winnipeg on overall attendance? Were the top teams attracting 17k and 18k on average with the bottom teams attacking 10 and 11k? Where did that leave Winnipeg? Middle of the pack?

That more clear now?

[wayward_prince]

Originally Posted by grumpy old man

Instead of being an asshat simply ask if you need help.

My point was the NHL average = X and Winnipeg = Y. But where did that place Winnipeg on overall attendance? Were the top teams attracting 17k and 18k on average with the bottom teams attacking 10 and 11k? Where did that leave Winnipeg? Middle of the pack?

That more clear now?

Winnipeg was near the bottom and now with newer bigger arena's Winnipeg, even with full attendance is guaranteed to be at the bottom..once again. Even Atlanta sells an average of 15,000 tickets per game. Winnipeg's economy is still one where few have the cash to attend games with an NHL high priced ticket.

[jimsabo21]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

I was just calling out the person who made the silly post saying "there are people in Winnipeg rich enough - even richer than Jim Balsillie" even though his own source proved that wrong. I live close to Winnipeg, and would have nothing against you guys having an NHL team, but I just don't think it will happen any time soon, whether or not there is an abundance of rich people in Winnipeg. One reason, is the lack of support Winnipeg has for its professional football team. And I'm not saying just this year with your brutal coach, but in the last few years. In 2007 (where your team eventually played in the Grey Cup, almost winning it), your playoff game wasn't even close to being sold out, while in Regina, it was packed and just as cold for our playoff game. You guys should prove you can be sports fans by supporting your football team, then maybe it'll attract the attention of someone outside of Winnipeg who would foot the bill to bring a team there.

Over the last 18 seasons (the only CFL attendance stats I could find), Winnipeg has had better attendance than Saskatchewan 11 times. So, while our crowd of 22,000 was embarassing last Friday, it was our SMALLEST crowd of the decade. Meanwhile, less than 10 years ago, Saskatchewan averaged only 19,000 fans per game for an ENTIRE season. That means that you must have had crowds in the 16K range to offset a Labour Day crowd of 30K.

Sask:

Average Attendance:

1990 - 26,318 1994 - 24,455 1998 - 24,141 2002 - 24,226 2006 - 25,293

1991 - 22,597 1995 - 28,500 1999 - 19,327 2003 - 29,352 2007 - 27,457

1992 - 21,704 1996 - 22,376 2000 - 24,715 2004 - 24,783 2008 - 29,996

1993 - 23,851 1997 - 27,038 2001 - 22,097 2005 - 25,454



Winnipeg:

Average Attendance:

1990 - 26,704 1994 - 23,606 1998 - 22,683 2002 - 27,560 2006 - 26,988

1991 - 27,757 1995 - 22,888 1999 - 21,807 2003 - 27,225 2007 - 27,701

1992 - 26,083 1996 - 25,799 2000 - 25,461 2004 - 24,496 2008 - 27,191

1993 - 25,101 1997 - 21,483 2001 - 28,144 2005 - 24,317


_________________________


That beind said, I think Saskatchewan has GREAT fans. I have no dobut that Saskatoon could also support an NHL team. You have to understand how bad things are down south.

Atlanta had gate receipts of $487,890 per game. Ironically, Atlanta averaged exactly 15,550 per game (the exact amount a sell-out would have been at the old Arena). That means the average ticket price was $31.35.

Even if Winnipeg only averaged 13,000 fans @ an average price of $50 per ticket, our per game gate receipts would be $650,000 which would place us #18 in the NHL.

I am sure Saskatoon could average the same for hockey. On top of ticket sales, Canadian cities also do MUCH better when it comes to merchadise sales, TV ratings, radio rights, etc ...

** As an FYI, the worst NHL franchise for gate receipts prior to the 2008 season was the Chicago Blackhawks at a rediculous $341,000 per game. If Winnipeg sold 15,000 seats, the avg ticket price would only have to be $22.73 to exceed that total

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by wayward_prince

Winnipeg was near the bottom and now with newer bigger arena's Winnipeg, even with full attendance is guaranteed to be at the bottom..once again. Even Atlanta sells an average of 15,000 tickets per game. Winnipeg's economy is still one where few have the cash to attend games with an NHL high priced ticket.

sigh...how do i always get sucked in....

any proof of your assertion about winnipeg's economy?...or are you just talking out of your ass again?

Winnipeg’s key economic indicators comparison 1994-2008 (since the jets left):

population:
1994: 676 000
2008: 733 000

population growth:
1994: 1600
2008: 10 000

average house value:
1994: $84 000 (Canadian average $158 000) 53% of the canadian average
2008: $191 000 (Canadian average $275 000) 70% of the canadian average

total value of building permits issued:
1994: $300 million
2008: $ 1 billion

housing starts:
1994: 972
2008: 3400

average household income:
1994: $43 000 (Canadian average $49 000) 87%
2008: $72 000 (Canadian average $70 500) 102%

unemployment rate
1994: 10.4% (Canadian average 9.5%)
2008: 4.3% (Canadian average 6%) (3rd in Canada)

total employment
1994: 318 000
2008: 400 000

retail sales:
1994: $4.3 million
2008: $9.3 million

GDP per capita
1994: $21 100 (Canada $26 700) 79% of the canadian average
2008: $44 500 (Canada $46 400) 96% of the canadian average

2008 economic growth 3.9% (third among Canadian cities)



Corporate presence in Winnipeg compared to other Canadian cities:

Corporate head offices; Top 500 largest publically traded companies (2008):

Winnipeg: 12
Edmonton: 7
Ottawa: 7
Quebec City: 2
Hamilton: 1

Corporate head offices; Companies of all sizes (2005):

Edmonton: 157
Winnipeg: 129
Ottawa: 101

Corporate head offices; total employment (2005):

Winnipeg: 6 890
Ottawa: 4 667
Edmonton: 3 428

[trueviking]

http://www.rodneyfort.com/PHSportsEc...com5-30-08.pdf

http://v1.theglobeandmail.com/v5/content/pdf/NHLweb.pdf

you cant just look at attendance figures...they are meaningless...you need to consider ticket revenues...that is what is important....these charts show the actual revenues that teams made from ticket sales...it proves that a 15000 seat arena is very viable in a hockey market.

average NHL ticket price: $51.00 (i hardly consider that 'high priced'....not much different than a bomber ticket)

if you do the math, you will see that 15 100 seats at the league average would be revenue of just under $800 000....those revenues would be good enough for 15-16th out of the 30 teams....right in the middle of the pack....certainly viable....having fewer seats would also increase the average ticket cost as it does in edmonton, because there are fewer low priced upper deck seats to water down the average....at edmonton oiler prices, winnipeg's 15 100 seats would average $920 000 per game which is nearing the levels of the top 1/3 of the league.

even averaging only 14 000 per game at the average ticket price, 1/3 of the league would still have less revenue.

what this chart also shows is that 9 teams, almost 1/3 of the league are actually averaging 12 000 or less at the average ticket price....6 teams are closer to 10 000 people per game at the average ticket price.

[Boreal]

Excellent information gather trueviking. Certainly frames our situation nicely. Thanks.

[newflyer]

It is obvious that Winnipeg is the strongest hockey market without an NHL franchise in North America .. and has a hockey market far beyond many southern US cities which currently have teams.

The fact is Winnipeg has had one of the strongest economies in the nation over the last number years.. a state of the art arena... the richest person in the nation, along with Chipman's considerable wealth working behind the scenes to land a team. All the while Balisillie makes a great screen with his antics.. keeping the attention off of the real action.

Its not a matter of "if" anymore ...

[wags_in_the_peg]

Originally Posted by trueviking

http://www.rodneyfort.com/PHSportsEc...com5-30-08.pdf

http://v1.theglobeandmail.com/v5/content/pdf/NHLweb.pdf

you cant just look at attendance figures...they are meaningless...you need to consider ticket revenues...that is what is important....these charts show the actual revenues that teams made from ticket sales...it proves that a 15000 seat arena is very viable in a hockey market.

average NHL ticket price: $51.00 (i hardly consider that 'high priced'....not much different than a bomber ticket)

if you do the math, you will see that 15 100 seats at the league average would be revenue of just under $800 000....those revenues would be good enough for 15-16th out of the 30 teams....right in the middle of the pack....certainly viable....having fewer seats would also increase the average ticket cost as it does in edmonton, because there are fewer low priced upper deck seats to water down the average....at edmonton oiler prices, winnipeg's 15 100 seats would average $920 000 per game which is nearing the levels of the top 1/3 of the league.

even averaging only 14 000 per game at the average ticket price, 1/3 of the league would still have less revenue.

what this chart also shows is that 9 teams, almost 1/3 of the league are actually averaging 12 000 or less at the average ticket price....6 teams are closer to 10 000 people per game at the average ticket price.

[h0twired]

Originally Posted by grumpy old man

Instead of being an asshat simply ask if you need help.

My point was the NHL average = X and Winnipeg = Y. But where did that place Winnipeg on overall attendance? Were the top teams attracting 17k and 18k on average with the bottom teams attacking 10 and 11k? Where did that leave Winnipeg? Middle of the pack?

That more clear now?

All one has to do is take a look at how many teams are actually profitable when they have attendance averages under 16,000 per game.

It is pretty easy to determine the number is going to be pretty low.

The people who state that teams like Atlanta, Tampa, Florida and Phoenix have low attendance seem to forget that those teams are also losing millions on a yearly basis.

[SteelTown]

Originally Posted by newflyer

It is obvious that Winnipeg is the strongest hockey market without an NHL franchise in North America .. and has a hockey market far beyond many southern US cities which currently have teams.

Not to be picky buy the NHL did admit in court that a Hamilton franchise would be at the top 5 NHL teams, so that would make Hamilton the strongest hockey market without an NHL franchise in North America. I believe trueviking admitted a Winnipeg NHL team would make it somewhere the top 20 to 15 NHL teams.

[DowntownWpg]

15,015 is very small for the NHL obviously. However, I'd assume that merchandise sales would be quite good in Winnipeg compared to most of the US clubs, which might off-set the small arena/less tickets a bit. Particularly so if it were the Coyotes to come here as "The Winnipeg Jets."

Nonetheless, I think it may be possible. But the capacity of the MTS is probably the biggest barrier for Winnipeg getting an NHL team due to people's perceptions of what is needed at a minimum.

Begs the question, why build something that only seats 15,015 if you want to bring NHL back one day? At best, the communication efforts is a difficult uphill battle to sell the idea that it can work with a 15K capacity. Arguing a bunch of dull numbers to illustrate that 'it could work' is certainly counter-productive in the effort to sell Winnipeg as a possibility, as it only highlights the negative perception and at best would be viewed as a case of wishful thinking.

The 15K capacity also does not help Chipman in selling Winnipeg as a viability with the NHL Board of Governors:

Originally Posted by Sun Media, Monday Oct. 5 '09

ARENA 'JUST TOO SMALL'

A member of the league's board of governors confirmed the Atlanta Thrashers are one of about 10 NHL teams currently up for sale. New York Islanders owner Charles Wang, who is seeking a new arena for the team, recently said he might consider moving the franchise.

The governor, who wants to remain anonymous, told Sun Media he's heard "nothing" about the Toronto group mentioned on Hockey Night in Canada.

He said he finds it hard to believe Winnipeg could support a NHL franchise at MTS centre.

"Here's the bottom line: it's just too small," he said.

The governor added, however, that he believes Winnipeg could easily support a team with the right arena.

If the Trashers ended up moving to Winnipeg it would be the second NHL team to move from Georgia to Western Canada. The Atlanta Flames moved to Calgary following the 1979-80 season.

The Phoenix Coyotes were formerly the Winnipeg Jets before moving to Arizona after the 1995-96 season.

[email protected]

http://www.winnipegsun.com/sports/ho...01261-sun.html

But, I guess they really wanted the arena to be located on Portage Ave. Should have built it elsewhere in downtown where there would be more room to build a proper NHL sized arena (a modest 17K seat arena). Perhaps located at the CMHR site, or a few other possibilities.

[Kinguni]

Should have been built by the Convention Centre but it wasn't, and I don't believe there's any room for expansion of the MTS Centre.

[RAFS]

Originally Posted by DowntownWpg

15,015 is very small for the NHL obviously.

I don't think it is obvious at all. My question is, who determined that 17-18K (or more) is the ideal size for the NHL? Is it not at all possible that 17-18K is too big? IMO, a smaller and more intimate arena would be ideally suited for hockey.

[DowntownWpg]

Guess I wasn't too clear. I meant that 15,015 is small for the NHL, as in compared to the sizes of the current NHL arenas. IIRC, it would be about 1,500 less than the current smallest arena, used by the Islanders (and the Isle's owner is arguing they need a larger arena).

Because having a "small and intimate" arena has probably never been a selling point for a city or ownership group to get an NHL team, nor does this really describe any of the NHL arenas (except for the Islanders), it is a hindrance when pitching Winnipeg as an NHL city. The whole "is the MTS Centre too small?" questions harms Winnipeg's chances, IMO, and would have been a non-issue if they built it to at least 17K seating. The capacity itself is the biggest challenge facing Winnipeg getting an NHL team. It'll seem too risky to many of those who can approve it, such as the NHL Board of Governors.

****

Oh yeah, and as long as Bettman is around, I wouldn't get my hopes up. He has played politics using Winnipeg as long as he has been commissioner, and is not to be trusted IMO.

[RAFS]

Originally Posted by DowntownWpg

Oh yeah, and as long as Bettman is around, I wouldn't get my hopes up. He has played politics using Winnipeg as long as he has been commissioner, and is not to be trusted IMO.

This, I totally agree with. One can only hope he is done as the commissioner very soon.

[Boreal]

SteelTown, I don't dispute that Hamilton claim for a second. However, I don't think it would be so much Hamilton as it would be the great-reaching tentacles of the GTA that would drive the high profitability of a Hamilton franchise (and thus why Hamilton isn't perhaps as big an option for relocation as Winnipeg, because the dollars are there for the ever lucrative expansion franchise). Thus, I wouldn't consider Hamilton to be a currently untapped hockey market. It is already to some extent tapped by the Leafs and the Sabres. Not to say Hamiltonians wouldn't want their own club, but they are only a stone's throw from two professional clubs, one of which they can see from Upper James St. Perhaps that's semantics, but I think that was the point that some are trying to get at.

edited to get the poster's user name correct.

[SteelTown]

Good luck in trying to get a Leafs ticket though. Think there is a 20-year waiting list. Hamilton isn't in Buffalo's territory, which was proven in court.

[h0twired]

Originally Posted by RAFS

I don't think it is obvious at all. My question is, who determined that 17-18K (or more) is the ideal size for the NHL? Is it not at all possible that 17-18K is too big? IMO, a smaller and more intimate arena would be ideally suited for hockey.

It comes down to a fine balance between ticket prices and player salaries and operating costs.

[ILYR]

I agree this all basically comes down to revenue.
Player salaries are the biggest expense, roughly 45 million.
Ticket revenue would need to cover most of that.
If we just consider ticket revenue, here some numbers based on average ticket prices from select cities.
http://teammarketing.com.ismmedia.co...0NHL%20FCI.pdf
Assumes sell-out crowd of 15015
Average ticket price 2009 (USD), 1 game ticket revenue, season revenue (41 games)
NHL 51.41 $771921.15 31771767.15
Ottawa 52.77 $792341.55 32486003.55
Edmonton 59.71 $896545.65 36758371.65
Calgary 59.73 $896845.95 36770683.95
Minnesota 61.28 $9201119.2 37724887.20

Thus, additional revenue from advertising, merchandise, and BEER sales would have to make up the rest. This also assumes that whoever would own the team would have to be part owner of the MTS centre, otherwise you run into the sticky mess of lease agreements. With 2500 additional seats, using the same average ticket prices would allow for an additional 5 to 6 million for the year, still less than the total cost of player salaries.
Just some more number to chew on.

To note: Edmonton is Winnipeg's most likely analog. They do not sell out every game, but close. Winnipeg could sell-out the MTS centre, but realistically could they sell out a 17500 seat arena? Would expanding be worth the cost if those seats are rarely full. That, by the way was one of the reasons for chosing the present size of the MTS centre. Its all about supply and demand.

[Cow-garian]

wow you guys are really throwing around A LOT of old and (IMO) insignificant statistics.

As a COMPLETE outsider to the issue looking from the outside in, I don't think the problem is whether Winnipeg has the resources to start a club or maintain a satisfactory attendance but rather the issue is that (just like the NFL) ticket sales are only a fraction of NHL revenue.

What Bettman and the rest of the owners care about is whether relocating/starting a team in Winnipeg will yield higher (significant) T.V contracts, Radio, miscellaneous endorsements and fact for the matter is; the answer is no.

Frankly, the Ontario southern belt, Kansas City, Seattle, etc.... even though might have more obstacles in front of them will yield more to the NHL than appeasing a small city of 750,000 (or small regional market for that matter)

In saying that I HOPE THE JETS COME BACK HOME SOME DAY!!!!