Hudsons Bay Building (Winnipeg) Redevelopment

[GarryEllice]

Originally Posted by NewIreland

Never took many marketing classes in uni, but I recall something to the effect of, "when developing a brand . . . stick to something less than 8 syllables. So no, this isn't a "race" issue (like everything these days), just really shitty marketing.

Wehwehneh Bahgahkinahgohn is 8 syllables. That's one syllable less than Canada's Diversity Gardens, and three syllables less than Canadian Museum of Human Rights.

It's also just a tentative name for the project, according to the government press release, so it may well not be the final branding.

In any case, I don't think it's bad marketing for an Indigenous project to have an Indigenous name whose pronunciation is a bit opaque to English speakers. It emphasizes what's different about the project.

If anyone wants to hear what the words sound like, here are links to the dictionary entries for the equivalent words in Southwestern Ojibwe (Minnesota). You can click the "Listen" button to hear them pronounced by an actual speaker:
weweni 'properly, correctly, carefully'
bagakinaagwad 'it is seen clearly, it looks bright'

(The spelling differences between wehwehneh bahgahkinahgohn and weweni bagakinaagwad are not significant, aside from "n" vs. "d" at the end, which is a North/South dialect thing. Otherwise the words are the same, just using different spelling systems.)

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by GarryEllice

Wehwehneh Bahgahkinahgohn is 8 syllables. That's one syllable less than Canada's Diversity Gardens, and three syllables less than Canadian Museum of Human Rights.

It's also just a tentative name for the project, according to the government press release, so it may well not be the final branding.

In any case, I don't think it's bad marketing for an Indigenous project to have an Indigenous name whose pronunciation is a bit opaque to English speakers. It emphasizes what's different about the project.

If anyone wants to hear what the words sound like, here are links to the dictionary entries for the equivalent words in Southwestern Ojibwe (Minnesota). You can click the "Listen" button to hear them pronounced by an actual speaker:
weweni 'properly, correctly, carefully'
bagakinaagwad 'it is seen clearly, it looks bright'

(The spelling differences between wehwehneh bahgahkinahgohn and weweni bagakinaagwad are not significant, aside from "n" vs. "d" at the end, which is a North/South dialect thing. Otherwise the words are the same, just using different spelling systems.)

Thanks for sharing that!

[trueviking]

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...acilities-key/

mention in the globe and mail today, including a little sneak peek image of the atrium.

[pspeid]

Looks amazing!

IMO It's sad Jennifer Rattray felt the need to repeat the "most racist city in Canada" thing, even though she DID qualify it by saying "we've been called...(the most racist city...)". People often don't look past labels, and I'm afraid repeating it will mean the city will always suffer that reputation, no matter how many reconciliation projects come about here. Ultimately I can't see how that helps suggest there will ever be a time when we can put that reputation to bed forever.

[Wpg_Guy]

That looks really nice, looking forward to seeing more!

[Biff]

Originally Posted by trueviking

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...acilities-key/

mention in the globe and mail today, including a little sneak peek image of the atrium.

Is that actual wood (Glulam or LVL) or simulated wood structural steel. Either way it looks awesome, just being curious.

[trueviking]

Glulam structure. It’s not exactly allowed by code but we think we can get an alternate solution approved.

[Winnipeg Grump]

[QUOTE=trueviking;9764001]https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...acilities-key/

mention in the globe and mail today, including a little sneak peek image of the atrium.


TV - is that the totem pole that's currently up in Assiniboine Park near The Leaf?

[esquire]

A totem pole is a curious design choice given that they're associated mainly with west coast Indigenous peoples.

[WestEndWander]

Originally Posted by trueviking

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...acilities-key/

mention in the globe and mail today, including a little sneak peek image of the atrium.

Looks great aside from the kitschy arrows. Indigenous architecture should be more than just the incorporation of some standard indigenous forms here and there.

[drew]

Originally Posted by WestEndWander

Looks great aside from the kitschy arrows. Indigenous architecture should be more than just the incorporation of some standard indigenous forms here and there.

Having been involved in a number of Indigenous projects over the years - that kitchy'ness is usually the request of the owner - not the designer.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by WestEndWander

Looks great aside from the kitschy arrows. Indigenous architecture should be more than just the incorporation of some standard indigenous forms here and there.

thanks for the tip.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by esquire

A totem pole is a curious design choice given that they're associated mainly with west coast Indigenous peoples.

it was given to them because it is a totem carved as a monument to the children of Residential Schools and the owner felt that it belonged in a place that is dedicated to reconciliation. They see it as an opportunity to make the place inclusive of all First Nations.

[WestEndWander]

Originally Posted by trueviking

thanks for the tip.

No problem. Figured you could use it as this pretty much an "anywhere" building as of right now.

[trueviking]

i was being facetious.

the 'kitsch' patterning is taken from Anishinaabe pottery, but it is a placeholder until a custom pattern can be developed by a local artist.

you really think that's an 'anywhere' image?

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by trueviking

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/busi...acilities-key/

mention in the globe and mail today, including a little sneak peek image of the atrium.

Just curious but how many trees are going to be planted in the atrium and is there a specific tree species that is in mind?

Also are those visible reinforced concrete columns absolutely necessary for the structural integrity of the atrium? I can’t help but notice how much it stands out in contrast to the beautiful wood carvings present on the rest of the columns.

Other then that I’m really liking the direction this whole development is heading and should hopefully spearhead Winnipeg at the forefront of the reconciliation movement (if we haven’t already established that role).

[WestEndWander]

Originally Posted by trueviking

i was being facetious.

the 'kitsch' patterning is taken from Anishinaabe pottery, but it is a placeholder until a custom pattern can be developed by a local artist.

you really think that's an 'anywhere' image?

As was I.

Patterning and traditional art incorporation into grand visual elements of structure is fairly standard practice in Indigenous Architecture. That's where my reference to an "anywhere" building comes from. Those elements need to be incorporated more subtly through smaller scale instillations spread throughout the building. Otherwise you get the sense you are surrounded by it all the time. It occupies you as opposed to yourself occupying the space. No room for user interpretation. This is just a perception I have after spending a lot of time in places designed to be "Indigenous".

I'm more interested in materiality reflecting indigenous culture, and the incorporation of those materials into larger visual elements (birch wood/birch bark, poplar, rough hewn cedar, stone, water, grasses and sedges) common shared physical elements utilized. Some of the basic core principles of the 4 tenets incorporated. It's time to move beyond the basic visual incorporations of culture.

This is not a comment on your design at all. What this image displays is head and shoulders above what currently exists there. It is to be commended given the amount of work that will be required to make that grand gesture happen.

My comment was more a general critique of Indigenous based architecture in Canada. Materiality over decorative murals/motifs should win out. I believe it would serve to forge much close connections with those buildings for the users.

[Tyler19944]

I’m not much a poster these days.. But I must say hearing this news about Hudson’s Bay is truly uplifting! Congratulations Winnipeg, your city deserves prosperity and to be at the forefront of reconciliation and growth of indigenous culture.

[borkborkbork]

"... praised as the largest act of corporate reconciliation in Canada."

i have to say this is sort of depressing on its own, given that an independent valuation of the building put it as worth $0.

something a bit on the nose about the corporate face of colonialism giving Indigenous peoples a giant liability and calling it a gift

[esquire]

Originally Posted by borkborkbork

i have to say this is sort of depressing on its own, given that an independent valuation of the building put it as worth $0.

something a bit on the nose about the corporate face of colonialism giving Indigenous peoples a giant liability and calling it a gift

Well said. That is precisely why I was so down on the announcement.

I mean, it's great that SCO stepped up to take on Winnipeg's headache, but let's not kid ourselves, HBC was not doing this as a favour to anyone but themselves. It's a sad indictiment of the state of downtown Winnipeg. There's a reason they gave away the downtown Winnipeg store but not any other city's.