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  #6281  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 3:15 AM
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LRT lines (or even Streetcar Lines) connecting the Danforth Subway Stations to downtown might be able to do the trick of the DRL without the expense. Might be something the government will look into, if funding cannot be arranged.
No surface LRT through the downtown core could accommodate the 117 million projected annual riders of the DRL. To put that in perspective, that's more riders than all of the TTC streetcar lines combined, more than any LRT system in North America, and about equal to the entire Vancouver Skytrain system. All on the initial phases of a single subway line.

Granted, that projection is from 2008, but the point remains that the DRL would be one of the most heavily used transit lines in the city. Why it's been such a low priority for so long is baffling.
     
     
  #6282  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 4:18 AM
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whats the source on the 117 million number? seems a little high. Peak hour projections are around 11,000 pphd which would place it roughly 1/3rd of that of the Yonge subway line.

Regardless, it would still be far above anything an at grade LRT could handle.

as for what should be funded, you have to look at what can attract the most new ridership too. The DRL is great on paper as it posts huge ridership numbers overall, but most of its ridership is existing ridership on the Bloor Danforth line who will simply transfer. Its needed as existing riders are overloaded, but other projects can provide more new transit riders, like GO RER.
     
     
  #6283  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 12:02 PM
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LRT line downtown is still better than nothing, which is what we're getting anyways.
     
     
  #6284  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 1:11 PM
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The logistics of putting a subway on King Street is far more complex than anything suburban expansion has to offer; high density development and narrow sidewalks to name a few.
     
     
  #6285  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 2:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
whats the source on the 117 million number? seems a little high. Peak hour projections are around 11,000 pphd which would place it roughly 1/3rd of that of the Yonge subway line.

Regardless, it would still be far above anything an at grade LRT could handle.

as for what should be funded, you have to look at what can attract the most new ridership too. The DRL is great on paper as it posts huge ridership numbers overall, but most of its ridership is existing ridership on the Bloor Danforth line who will simply transfer. Its needed as existing riders are overloaded, but other projects can provide more new transit riders, like GO RER.
The projection comes from Metrolinx. I'm not sure why people think it seems a little high, it's lower than Lines 1 and 2. Which, given how much shorter it is, is no surprise. Peak point ridership would be second only to Line 1. The line will go through some of the densest parts of downtown with no rapid transit service, so the demand is huge.

I think you might be overestimating how many riders would come from Line 2. Large numbers would switch from streetcars, induced demand from people who are currently walking, or coming from the north. Bloor-Yonge relief is just one aspect of the line.

As for RER, even back in 2008 Metrolinx was planning for electrified RER and incorporating that into its projections. The DRL serves largely different demand from what RER can satisfy.

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The logistics of putting a subway on King Street is far more complex than anything suburban expansion has to offer; high density development and narrow sidewalks to name a few.
That's just the kind of environment that subways were invented for and where they make a profit. It's expensive to build but it's worth it.
     
     
  #6286  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 2:29 PM
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That's just the kind of environment that subways were invented for and where they make a profit. It's expensive to build but it's worth it.
Maybe it's time to have private engineering companies build subways downtown.
     
     
  #6287  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 3:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
whats the source on the 117 million number? seems a little high. Peak hour projections are around 11,000 pphd which would place it roughly 1/3rd of that of the Yonge subway line.\
The central trunk of the Ottawa Transitway currently carries 10,700pphd and it's jammed as hell and needed a tunnel twenty years ago.

Comparable situations.
     
     
  #6288  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 3:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Mister F View Post
No surface LRT through the downtown core could accommodate the 117 million projected annual riders of the DRL. To put that in perspective, that's more riders than all of the TTC streetcar lines combined, more than any LRT system in North America, and about equal to the entire Vancouver Skytrain system. All on the initial phases of a single subway line.

Granted, that projection is from 2008, but the point remains that the DRL would be one of the most heavily used transit lines in the city. Why it's been such a low priority for so long is baffling.
Calgary's LRT once the four car upgrade happens this fall will handily handle similar numbers, and that is with the capacity loss that comes from interlining.
     
     
  #6289  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 4:14 PM
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Calgary's LRT suffers in the central 7th Ave corridor. Outside of that, isn't it almost equivalent to a grade separated system?
     
     
  #6290  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 5:23 PM
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Calgary's LRT suffers in the central 7th Ave corridor. Outside of that, isn't it almost equivalent to a grade separated system?
Yeah. But the street portion can handle that load. You look at bottlenecks for capacity.

Toronto should try reserved lanes for the King Car as a pilot program and. Might delay needing to spend a lot of dollars, and certainly wouldn't be more disruptive than digging station pits.
     
     
  #6291  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 5:36 PM
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Yeah. But the street portion can handle that load. You look at bottlenecks for capacity.

Toronto should try reserved lanes for the King Car as a pilot program and. Might delay needing to spend a lot of dollars, and certainly wouldn't be more disruptive than digging station pits.
They're already doing at rush hour, IIRC.

King should be an exclusive streetcar ROW. Or Queen.
     
     
  #6292  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 5:37 PM
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That's just the kind of environment that subways were invented for and where they make a profit. It's expensive to build but it's worth it.

Not really. The best time to have built a subway on King passed by a long time ago. Now, it's a nightmarish scenario to fit in all the necessary surface infrastructure and would be highly disruptive to the neighbourhoods during construction. A likely career ending venture for any politician.

What happened to the Bremner/Fort York LRT anyways? Seemed like a no brainer to run the 508 down there.
     
     
  #6293  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 5:41 PM
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The King subway would probably have to be dug extremely deep--something like 40m--through bedrock to avoid conflicts with all the infrastructure there. I don't think Toronto has lines that deep, their subways are very shallow. (By contrast to Montreal or London UK where most stations are quite deep).
     
     
  #6294  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 5:47 PM
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^ Since it would have a low number of stations, deeper shouldn't be a big cost driver compared to a 'standard' depth bored tunnel.
     
     
  #6295  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 6:25 PM
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What is not right about this is that the GTA seems to get funding for 100% while Ottawa and Kitchener/Waterloo only get funding for 1/3 from the province and 1/3 from the Feds.
The Liberals have opened up a can of worms as seen below by the article in the Waterloo Record, requesting 100% funding for phase 2 or being included in the GTHA or should I say GTHAKWC and while we are at it we might as well add London and Guelph and Stratford and Chatham and Windsor. Let's forget about Ottawa though, as per usual. There should be one set of rules for every major city in the province. Instead of making funding dependant upon whether you are part of the GTHA, why not make it conditional on being part of "Ontario". Every city should have to pay part of the costs no matter how big or small the costs are or the city is, and that incudes Toronto. And no, I do not have a hate on for Toronto.

Waterloo Region Record
By Paige Desmond
WATERLOO REGION — Regional officials are feeling shortchanged on light rail transit after the province announced $1.6 billion to pay for the Hurontario Line between Mississauga and Brampton this week.

"It certainly is disappointing that we've gone ahead in good faith … and put in our pound of flesh and then others who come along after, who happen to be in the GTA, seem to, if they become petulant as they were, then get the full amount," Coun. Tom Galloway said.

Region of Waterloo politicians plan to ask the province if its commitment in Mississauga means that's the new standard for transit projects.

They'd like 100 per cent funding for Phase 2 of light rail from Kitchener to Cambridge.

"Our government was first at the table in Phase 1 and we will be at the table for Phase 2," transport minister Steven Del Duca said in an email.

He said light rail from Cambridge to Kitchener would be eligible for money from the province's Moving Ontario Forward plan and added the region hasn't requested funding.

There will be some cost to Mississauga and Brampton for light rail, according to the government.

The region has awarded a $1.9-billion contract to construction consortium GrandLinq to design, build, finance, operate and maintain light rail for 30 years.

In 2008, the province pledged to pay up to two-thirds of the cost of the local rapid transit system. Documents obtained by The Record several years later showed that pledge was based on estimated project costs of $260 million.

The province altered its funding commitment in 2010, changing the pledge to $300 million. The federal government committed to pay up to $265 million for the project.

Regional councillors raised the funding issue at a meeting Wednesday.

"I would go as far as to say you know, madame premier and provincial government, in light of the fact that you've 100 per cent funded Brampton and Mississauga we hereby request 100 per cent funding commitment for Phase 2 of our LRT project," Coun. Sean Strickland said.

Regional Chair Ken Seiling took a different approach. He asked staff to report back to committee in May on a motion to ask that Waterloo Region be included in the Metrolinx planning area.

Metrolinx is the crown corporation created to deal with transportation in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton area. It doesn't include this region.

"We've been asking for a number of years to be included in the Metrolinx planning area," Seiling said.

The region may be out of luck.

"There are no current plans to expand the scope of Metrolinx's planning mandate," transport ministry spokesperson Bob Nichols said.

He said the region is within the GO Transit's service area and within 10 years all-day, two-way trains will run between the Kitchener and Bramalea GO stations, and Bramalea and Union Station.

Light rail here is expected to be running in late 2017 between Conestoga Mall in Waterloo and Fairview Park Mall in Kitchener.
     
     
  #6296  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 7:38 PM
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Big Picture: The LRT line will connect two GO Transit (FUTURE RER LINES) that connect, KWC, Hamilton and Toronto.

Me, Me, Me!!
     
     
  #6297  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 7:54 PM
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The difference here is in Toronto, Waterloo, etc. they're fiesty and make demands from the province.

Ottawa is timid. Mayor Jim Watson seems perfectly satisfied with 1/3 provincial funding and is making no push for more. If he did, we could probably easily get 100% provincial funding, as the $15B outside of the GTHA fund is undercommitted.
     
     
  #6298  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 8:11 PM
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Remember that the government is Watson's people. You don't have to shake the bird cage in public if you can climb into it.
     
     
  #6299  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 10:06 PM
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Don't complain K/W. Signed London.
     
     
  #6300  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2015, 10:10 PM
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Upgrading the streetcar lines, with reserved lanes, signal priority and the new jumbo streetcars is a sure fire way to increase capacity of all the lines coming in from the Bloor and Danforth Subway Stations, it will also take a lot of pressure off the Yonge Subway.
     
     
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