General Updates and News

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

Young professionals are not "by definition" yuppies. It depends on your definition of yuppie. There are lots. Most are derogatory.

I thought it was short for "Young Urban Professionals"

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I thought it was short for "Young Urban Professionals"

The history is a little more complicated

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuppie

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

I live on a farm in West Pubnico.

Why do you have to be sarcastic about everything?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

Compared to other major cities in Canada, Halifax has among the lowest percentage of its overall office space located in the core. We already have more suburban office space than pretty much any other major or comparable city.

Halifax is different than most cities in Canada. Take for example London, Ontario. Maybe it makes sense in London to have offices concentrated in the core since London isn't divided by a large harbour. The same goes for Regina, Calgary, Edmonton, and Winnipeg. Figure 14 of this report - https://www.regina.ca/opencms/export/sit...ts/urban-planning/.media/pdf/study-1.pdf - gives statistics on the downtown/suburban office splits for various cities throughout Canada.

At one time it seemed as though the urban plan for the Greater Toronto Area (GTA) was to focus office buildings downtown with highways, subways and commuter trains transporting people downtown and then out of the city after work. Over the past 20- 30 years office buildings have been distributed more throughout the GTA and numerous condos towers are being built in downtown Toronto. I think this has been good for the city. Downtown Toronto has become a vibrant city with people living and working in the core. Neighbouring communities, such as Mississauga, North York, Markham can also support both work and residential spaces. Since the late 1960's the office space distribution in the GTA has gone from over 80% in the downtown core of Toronto to under 50% (Figure 12 of the same report - https://www.regina.ca/opencms/export/sit...ts/urban-planning/.media/pdf/study-1.pdf)

Personally, I think Halifax is moving in a logical direction as far as office construction is concerned. Office buildings are being built where people live. And now condos and more apartments are being built in the Halifax core where many people work.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Why do you have to be sarcastic about everything?

Why is it totally unbelievable that I live on a farm in West Pubnico? I could be a retired yuppie living on a ranch; tired of the rat race and eager join a world of quiet writing and reflection and arguing about urban planning on SSP.

I live on the peninsula. Somewhere in Waye's riding.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Halifax is different than most cities in Canada. Take for example London, Ontario. Maybe it makes sense in London to have offices concentrated in the core since London isn't divided by a large harbour. The same goes for Regina, Calgary, Edmonton, and Winnipeg. Figure 14 of this report - https://www.regina.ca/opencms/export/sit...ts/urban-planning/.media/pdf/study-1.pdf - gives statistics on the downtown/suburban office splits for various cities throughout Canada.

At one time it seemed as though the urban plan for the Greater Toronto Area (GTA) was to focus office buildings downtown with highways, subways and commuter trains transporting people downtown and then out of the city after work. Over the past 20- 30 years office buildings have been distributed more throughout the GTA and numerous condos towers are being built in downtown Toronto. I think this has been good for the city. Downtown Toronto has become a vibrant city with people living and working in the core. Neighbouring communities, such as Mississauga, North York, Markham can also support both work and residential spaces. Since the late 1960's the office space distribution in the GTA has gone from over 80% in the downtown core of Toronto to under 50% (Figure 12 of the same report - https://www.regina.ca/opencms/export/sit...ts/urban-planning/.media/pdf/study-1.pdf)

Personally, I think Halifax is moving in a logical direction as far as office construction is concerned. Office buildings are being built where people live. And now condos and more apartments are being built in the Halifax core where many people work.

The table in that report is pretty bad. We're even worst than I thought. It seems the only two regions we clearly better on the core/suburban split for office space, are Waterloo and Guelph, two truly ugly cities/regions. Ottawa we're neck and neck with, and Ottawa is, at times, a bit of a sprawling nightmare due, in part, to strict height limits and other development restrictions in the core-- much like Halifax.

Anyways, I think Toronto has to build out more into the suburbs almost as a necessity; it's just too big, and still growing. It's a massive city. Halifax, we don't have anywhere near the population numbers, and thus not the tax base to support that kind of model.

Toronto can afford to put some office towers in the suburbs because it has a massively wealthy corporate and property tax base to draw on. We don't have that either. So we need to be smarter, and focus on more residential AND office downtown.

So, I agree in part-- more residential downtown is the right direction, but I wouldn't adopt the Toronto model of suburban office space. We're too different.

It seems cities more comparable to our size on that chart -- Regina, Victoria, Saskatoon, Winnipeg-- are kicking our butts badly in terms of downtown office share. There's a reason for that, I think.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Halifax is different than most cities in Canada. Take for example London, Ontario. Maybe it makes sense in London to have offices concentrated in the core since London isn't divided by a large harbour. The same goes for Regina, Calgary, Edmonton, and Winnipeg. Figure 14 of this report - https://www.regina.ca/opencms/export/sit...ts/urban-planning/.media/pdf/study-1.pdf - gives statistics on the downtown/suburban office splits for various cities throughout Canada.

At one time it seemed as though the urban plan for the Greater Toronto Area (GTA) was to focus office buildings downtown with highways, subways and commuter trains transporting people downtown and then out of the city after work. Over the past 20- 30 years office buildings have been distributed more throughout the GTA and numerous condos towers are being built in downtown Toronto. I think this has been good for the city. Downtown Toronto has become a vibrant city with people living and working in the core. Neighbouring communities, such as Mississauga, North York, Markham can also support both work and residential spaces. Since the late 1960's the office space distribution in the GTA has gone from over 80% in the downtown core of Toronto to under 50% (Figure 12 of the same report - https://www.regina.ca/opencms/export/sit...ts/urban-planning/.media/pdf/study-1.pdf)

Personally, I think Halifax is moving in a logical direction as far as office construction is concerned. Office buildings are being built where people live. And now condos and more apartments are being built in the Halifax core where many people work.

Toronto office space has been distributed throughout the GTA because the region's horrifying sprawl makes it impossible to commute, but the percentage of its office space downtown is still far higher than Halifax (a less sprawly city where it's easier to commute downtown).

And the suburbification trend is now reversing, with downtown office space is now so in demand in the GTA that a whole derelict former industrial area between downtown and the harbour is now becoming the "South Core" office district. Offices are actually moving from the burbs into downtown to an unprecedented degree, so if you're saying the Toronto model is one of dispersed offices throughout the region, that's really not true, certainly not anymore--downtown is the number-one office-space growth area in the entire region, by far.

As for a city like Calgary, it actually would make more sense, given the car-dependent, dispersed nature of the city, to have a less centrally focused office district. But oil companies love to be physically near each other. They're like banks that way.

I do agree in theory that it makes sense to have several regional office centres throughout a metro region, and that it makes sense for Halifax to get residential space downtown and not just office space. But Halifax can definitely stand to have the balance of office space tipped more toward the old downtown for a few years—it's been left out in the cold far too long, as Counterfactual said.

[halifaxboyns]

I think we have to keep in mind the difference between Toronto and the GTA - Greater Toronto Area. If you look at the GTA - yes office space is sprawling all over the place. But in Toronto the distribution of office space is quite consistent - the Downtown office/financial core and then at nodes along the subway (in Transit Oriented Development Areas).

I had a look at this thread last night again and I'm starting to wonder if Halifax isn't moving in the right direction with divesting a bulk of the offices to other locations? We seem to think about downtowns as the place where all the offices should be - but if you look at cities where the downtown is just office; it empties out at night and these areas are dead. I live in the office core part of Calgary and there are only a few apartment buildings - I can tell you it's pretty dead.

Maybe we need to rethink how we see 'downtown' and focus on the mixing of uses. More residential population through multi-residential development - maybe that will bring the right number of people to begin encouraging more office development. I honestly wouldn't want to see the downtown full of offices - we have that for the most part now and Barrington is pretty dead at night.

[hokus83]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I think we have to keep in mind the difference between Toronto and the GTA - Greater Toronto Area. If you look at the GTA - yes office space is sprawling all over the place. But in Toronto the distribution of office space is quite consistent - the Downtown office/financial core and then at nodes along the subway (in Transit Oriented Development Areas).

I had a look at this thread last night again and I'm starting to wonder if Halifax isn't moving in the right direction with divesting a bulk of the offices to other locations? We seem to think about downtowns as the place where all the offices should be - but if you look at cities where the downtown is just office; it empties out at night and these areas are dead. I live in the office core part of Calgary and there are only a few apartment buildings - I can tell you it's pretty dead.

Maybe we need to rethink how we see 'downtown' and focus on the mixing of uses. More residential population through multi-residential development - maybe that will bring the right number of people to begin encouraging more office development. I honestly wouldn't want to see the downtown full of offices - we have that for the most part now and Barrington is pretty dead at night.

We have so much empty space Downtown that there is room for both, we should fill some of that before we start throwing things everywhere else, I think Dartmouth it s great place to expand to in the near future but having worked in Bedford and Burnside for years and Living downtown I hated, I find them both awful places to have to work in. IF you want to go another on your lunch hour in either locations you pretty much have to drive to one, Bedford wasn't as bad but youre pretty limited and the company I was working for moved to Burnside just recently instead of downtown where their demand is greatest; the choice was because they foolishly felt there was no parking downtown for clients. If I'm a client for a company I personally wouldn't enjoy having to go to Burnside.

[Keith P.]

A St. Patrick's-Alexandra decision!

Originally Posted by xanaxanax

The court of appeal ruling is in the next couple of weeks, it will be interesting if anything changes

Well, it took months longer than it should have, but good news:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scoti...wins-st-pat-s-alexandra-appeal-1.2794147

Nova Scotia's highest court has sided with a developer in a battle over the disposal of a surplus school building in Halifax.

Jono Developments appealed a lower court ruling over the sale of St. Patrick's-Alexandra. The city had sold the school to Jono, but community groups took the city's decision to court.

The Nova Scotia Supreme Court sided with the community groups. But in a decision released Thursday by the Nova Scotia Court of Appeal, two judges say the city acted properly in its initial sale to Jono.

A spokeswoman for the city says the legal department is now assessing today's decision. Tiffany Chase says lawyers will hold an in-camera session with city councillors on Oct. 21, and then council will decide what to do.

...

Several community groups challenged the move in court and a judge struck down the deal in September 2012. Jono Developments appealed that ruling. The Court of Appeals ruled with Jono Developments.

It said Halifax had satisfied its duty of fairness. The judges found ample evidence to support HRM's price for the site, which it said was not under market value.

Finally, the motions judge did not err in awarding partial costs against the appellant. However, in light of the appeal being overturned, the costs award was nullified, the ruling says.

Apparently the community groups have also been ordered to pay Jono $28,000 in costs. However their lawyer is trying to talk them into an appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada. Shameful.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

A St. Patrick's-Alexandra decision!



Well, it took months longer than it should have, but good news:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scoti...wins-st-pat-s-alexandra-appeal-1.2794147



Apparently the community groups have also been ordered to pay Jono $28,000 in costs. However their lawyer is trying to talk them into an appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada. Shameful.

The Chief Justice dissented, only on the issue of duty of fairness, and I guess the next step is SCOC.
Read the decision here : http://www.courts.ns.ca/Decisions_Of_Courts/documents/2014nsca92.pdf

The issue of procedural fairness is serious enough that this should go to SCOC.
Allow me to explain the frequent abuse of the duty of fairness by HRM Council and Community Council.
Last week HEMDCC held a Public Hearing to consider an application by NS Housing for 32 units in Cole Harbour.
The applicant presented at least 8 images during his time allowed. No other person spoke to the issue. If a member of the public had spoken she/he would be limited much less time and allowed to briefly show only two 2 images.
The Administrative Order covering Public Hearings makes no mention of a limit of images that may be shown by an applicant or a member of the public yet it is now normal practice to limit the ability of a member of the public to illustrate their opinion with images.
Planning applications are as much about the visual image of a development and its impact as it is about other issues.
And the 'community groups have to pay an additional $6,000 plus disbursements to Jono.
The payback of $28,000 is to HRM and Jono.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Colin May

The Chief Justice dissented, only on the issue of duty of fairness, and I guess the next step is SCOC.
Read the decision here : http://www.courts.ns.ca/Decisions_Of_Courts/documents/2014nsca92.pdf

The issue of procedural fairness is serious enough that this should go to SCOC.
Allow me to explain the frequent abuse of the duty of fairness by HRM Council and Community Council.
Last week HEMDCC held a Public Hearing to consider an application by NS Housing for 32 units in Cole Harbour.
The applicant presented at least 8 images during his time allowed. No other person spoke to the issue. If a member of the public had spoken she/he would be limited much less time and allowed to briefly show only two 2 images.
The Administrative Order covering Public Hearings makes no mention of a limit of images that may be shown by an applicant or a member of the public yet it is now normal practice to limit the ability of a member of the public to illustrate their opinion with images.
Planning applications are as much about the visual image of a development and its impact as it is about other issues.
And the 'community groups have to pay an additional $6,000 plus disbursements to Jono.
The payback of $28,000 is to HRM and Jono.

I'm not a lawyer or anything so I could be wrong, but I can't see the Supreme Court taking this case. It's just not a case of national importance or whatever. This is a rinky dink stupid land sale that somehow, as usual, HRM managed to turn into a utter boondoggle with a spineless Council and overly litigious community groups.

I always found the lower court's ruling on Fair Market Value made no sense-- Jono was willing to pay $4m if certain market conditions held, but those conditions didn't hold, so they offered a lower amount. The Court somehow took this as evidence of HRM selling land below FMV. Huh? The Court of Appeal thought it was bunk too, I guess.

The $21,000 in costs order against the Community Groups (paid equally) plus disbursements is a thunder bolt.

That, plus the payback (as Colin notes) of costs paid by Jono and HRM previously to the Groups, should be a pretty strong deterrent effect against other frivolous litigation like this!

[Ziobrop]

ugh. this one is a mess.

if council puts a policy in place, they should follow it to ensure fairness to all. i think we all as citizens should expect rules set by council to be followed by the city. its fair, and its predicatable.

that said, there is nothing that binds council to follow their own rules - they can change their mind. they can do what they want. in this case they had a signed agreement to sell, they should be bound to honour it.

I have to say, I was impressed by the community groups proposal the second time around. it was much more complete then i thought it would be. i have concerns about the amount of financing and government money required to complete it, plus I think their assessment of the building conditions is to optimistic, but it was more reasonable then i thought.

the better plan i think would have been for the city to Sell to Jono up front, with the understanding that the development would have X sq ft for community use to meet the groups requirements.

on that note HAlifax Council, for the quinpool school, take the 5 million and run. its a good price, and the city is protected from demo and zoning cost overruns.

[hokus83]

This would be flat out rejected by a Supreme Court of Canada appeal, you just can't appeal every ruling, you need a legal reason on why the Nova Scotia Supreme Court was wrong and they would be fighting a huge up hill battle trying to prove why the Supreme Court of Nova Scotia was in the wrong. I dont think this even falls under federal jurisdiction.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by hokus83

This would be flat out rejected by a Supreme Court of Canada appeal, you just can't appeal every ruling, you need a legal reason on why the Nova Scotia Supreme Court was wrong and they would be fighting a huge up hill battle trying to prove why the Supreme Court of Nova Scotia was in the wrong. I dont think this even falls under federal jurisdiction.

The Chief Justice of Nova Scotia dissented on the issue of the duty of procedural fairness - a very important issue. He lays out his dissent
Read the judgement and also google 'procedural fairness' .
Councils can't just go around making it up as they go along. They have rules to follow, rules laid out in statutes and rules of procedure they establish themselves for conducting the business of the municipality.
The group/s may seek leave to appeal and be rejected by SCOC or it may be granted and then it is a long wait before a hearing.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Colin May

The Chief Justice of Nova Scotia dissented on the issue of the duty of procedural fairness - a very important issue. He lays out his dissent
Read the judgement and also google 'procedural fairness' .
Councils can't just go around making it up as they go along. They have rules to follow, rules laid out in statutes and rules of procedure they establish themselves for conducting the business of the municipality.
The group/s may seek leave to appeal and be rejected by SCOC or it may be granted and then it is a long wait before a hearing.

Thing is, the Court of Appeal, highest court in NS, just said that Council wasn't making things up, but acted fully in accordance with the law.

There was a duty of fairness and involving groups in the RFP process discharged that duty.

They should not have sued. Now have their comeuppance.

[Jonovision]

Two paint jobs happening downtown.

[Colin May]

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014...ove-our-lives-by-designing-smart-cities/

A good read.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Colin May

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014...ove-our-lives-by-designing-smart-cities/

A good read.

I don't buy it. I lived in a 22-storey downtown building with over 400 apartments. I knew most of the people on my floor wing and knew several well enough to visit with each other. Plus living downtown I went out all the time, walking everywhere, and had a great social life. Now I live in a neighborhood and while I know my neighbors we do little other than wave at each other and if you want any kind of social life you have to get in your car and drive somewhere as nothing is in walking distance.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Toronto office space has been distributed throughout the GTA because the region's horrifying sprawl makes it impossible to commute, but the percentage of its office space downtown is still far higher than Halifax (a less sprawly city where it's easier to commute downtown).

And the suburbification trend is now reversing, with downtown office space is now so in demand in the GTA that a whole derelict former industrial area between downtown and the harbour is now becoming the "South Core" office district. Offices are actually moving from the burbs into downtown to an unprecedented degree, so if you're saying the Toronto model is one of dispersed offices throughout the region, that's really not true, certainly not anymore--downtown is the number-one office-space growth area in the entire region, by far.

As for a city like Calgary, it actually would make more sense, given the car-dependent, dispersed nature of the city, to have a less centrally focused office district. But oil companies love to be physically near each other. They're like banks that way.

I do agree in theory that it makes sense to have several regional office centres throughout a metro region, and that it makes sense for Halifax to get residential space downtown and not just office space. But Halifax can definitely stand to have the balance of office space tipped more toward the old downtown for a few years—it's been left out in the cold far too long, as Counterfactual said.

Well, this pretty much nails it.