YEG - Edmonton Int Airport

[Rocket252]

The YEG-LHR route has done well despite ACs best efforts to mess it up.

[hilman]

Originally Posted by espalorius

This post was very clear and logical


This one...
I dunno, I mean if they could make more money in Edmonton they would....right?

You would think so but they seem to hinder YEG in everyway they can

[Airboy]

[QUOTE=LO 044;5339010]I would be very curious to see how many people actually connect through LHR via AC codeshares because
Booking with AC.com gives you garbage choices for connections via LHR or gives you better or the only routing via YUL/YYZ/YYC/FRA.

My last trip in March was tough to book. Try getting to Berlin through LHR. we ended up book each segment individually. Most people I talked to on that particular flight were transfering on to eastern Europe or Central Asia.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by hilman

I think there is a lot more to it than that, AC loves their hub and spoke model and imo does everything it can to not sway from this (i.e. gives YEG horrible air service). You are trying to tell me a booming city of over 1 million people cannot supprt a daily flight to FRA? It seems thery rather have multiple flights from YYC that are half full rather than give one to YEG.

With the mountains and corporate headquarters Calgary depends a lot less 'everyday' folk to fill flights. Ottawa has extra demand that comes with being the capital from the government, and foreign governments.

People here complain that 'YEG-FRA daily would work if it was just given a chance'. Well even Air Transat doesn't think charters work. If they could make any money at all on it they would be running them.

Economics of air travel are fickle, if you are just one seat short of break even in demand service won't come. If you are 50 seats there is no way. Because transcontinental airliners come in limited sizes if you can fill 2 you are stuck with one. You can't just downsize and run an A319!

[hilman]

I beg to disagree, our world headquarters are in Frankfurt and our upper management would travel that route every week or two and most often the YYC-FRA flights were far from full, do you really think Edmonton couldn't fill one plane per day to FRA? According to this site, there are 147,000+ passengers a year flying to Europe (FRA and AMS).

http://www.therouteshop.com/edmonton-airport/

[MalcolmTucker]

On the same website Winnipeg purports to have the demand to support a FRA flight as well. Also Hong Kong has more demand according to it! Why no YEG-HKG love from you?

[hilman]

Do you have a point in there somewhere? I want numerous routes including EWR, FRA and an Asian market, I think YEG deserves much better than its getting, don't you?

[LO 044]

Let's not bring Air Transat into the picture. Crappy schedules and crappy service and they most likely left after AC began flying daily to LHR becasue they couldn't match even AC's schedules, almost as crappy connections and service. A charter flight to London is OK because someone might want to visit London. The same can't be said for Frankfurt.

[dansk]

Using the word MUCH better service is a little over board. YEG serves Edmonton very well, but needs a little capacity boost to certain areas, such as: Eastern USA, smaller communities in Western Canada (ie Lethbridge, Prince George, Naniamo), Europe (FRA). Continental/United should increase IAH as well to allow more connections through Edmonton. Right now you can not connect north without a nights stay in Edmonton.

The reason that Edmonton isn't seeing these is not because we can not support them. It is because we are only serviced by one major airline Alliance; that being the Star Alliance (United/Continental, USairways and AirCanada). They are not going to directly compete with each other. A simple example of this is our Houston flight with United/Continental. The flight was probably set-up to not allow connections else where, because they want northern passengers to utilize the hub in Calgary that has 3-5 flights daily. This route will see increased service, but not until they can guarentee that it doesn't affect the flights in/out of the hub in Calgary.

FRA is the same way. YEG can support it, we have the business and leisure segement to support one 767-300 to FRA or another hub in Europe; but because once again Canada's routes into Europe are mainly Star Alliance there is no pushing financial need for the carriers to add the route. This is unlike the LHR route which has many more competitors opting for options to Canada. When the route was launched the rumour was BA was looking at the route, AC swooped in and entered the market making in non-viable for BA.

Addressing Air Transat and other Charters. You can not use where they chose to fly as an indicator of what routes work (ie the quote about regarding FRA not working for them). Charters do not offer a vareity of services like connections. They go 100% off of Market to Market business. When you go to Germany do you go to Frankfurt, Munich, Hamburg, or Berlin? Frankfurt to me is where I go for my quarterly business trips, the rest is where I go for holidays. Thus the charter is a hassle. Air Transat has better luck offering service to cities with huge demand for local traffic like London, Paris, and other similar cities. Frankfurt is more business than leisure in my mind.

[EdmTrekker]

[QUOTE=Airboy;5339041]

Originally Posted by LO 044

I would be very curious to see how many people actually connect through LHR via AC codeshares because
Booking with AC.com gives you garbage choices for connections via LHR or gives you better or the only routing via YUL/YYZ/YYC/FRA.

My last trip in March was tough to book. Try getting to Berlin through LHR. we ended up book each segment individually. Most people I talked to on that particular flight were transfering on to eastern Europe or Central Asia.

I fly to LHR (as I will soon do again) and buy separate tickets on BA from LHR to my destination and return. $69.00 including taxes in CA each way this time to Paris with hrly flights. If I fly from YYZ etc I lose 1 day getting to Paris as no matter how I fly the AC flights are evening from YUL and YYZ. With AC YEG to LHR I leave at 5:50 pm, sleep overnight arrive early into LHR and catch a flight using BA booked separately (obviously). On my return this time I am taking the Eurostar into London (39 pounds) then Piccadilly Line (5 pounds) cause I have time. Train price = BA price. Bottom line is that with low low BA prices out of LHR - London has become a great connecting point. I see many airlines are shrinking their foorprint at FRA - so the future may not be so friendly for FRA in a few years. MUC and BBI (BBI going to be THE place) for connections in Germany.

[Airboy]

[QUOTE=EdmTrekker;5339358][QUOTE=Airboy;5339041]

Funny the same basic trip as us. BA is ok.
I can see BBI expanding service especially with the consolidation to one airport.

[Johnny Aussie]

^^^^^^^
I would be very curious to know what the source of these stats is. I would take it with a grain of salt. For example, according to those numbers there are more than 410 passengers a day travelling to Hong Kong from Edmonton. That would be more than enough to fill a daily 777 on AC or CX.. Imagine all the onward connecting traffic a route like that would be able to garner through HKG, because the 410 per day figure is only to Hong Kong according to the website. I wonder why nobody has started that route yet?

Also, if the YYC-FRA flights are only half full (your words) like you purport, what would be the likelihood of a YEG-FRA flight being more than half full? YYC-FRA has had capacity downgraded quite a fair amount over the last year... so with all the head office/oil/business traffic, tourism (read as Banff) and just the geographical advantage YYC has, I would say it would be much harder to fill a YEG-FRA flight than a YYC one.

[hilman]

^ You are assuming that all people traveling from Edmonton to (or via) Frankfurt are going through Calgary. Our management would also use YYZ, LHR and sometimes ORD, so you really can't say it would only be half full.

From what I have heard, Edmonton has a large amount of traffic to Asia and they are trying to secure a nonstop route. But of course that is just hearsay from people at the airport and the proof will be in pudding as they say.

[Johnny Aussie]

^
No I am not assuming all YEG-FRA passengers fly via YYC. What I am saying is that there would clearly be more YYC-FRA passengers. These passengers would also feed in from US west coast, BC and AB (including YEG). With all the business traffic and tourist traffic in summer and winter (much more ski opportunities from YYC) so I would find it hard to believe that a YEG-FRA would be busier than a YYC one. Case in point is also in the winter, YEG cannot sustain even a daily LHR as it drops to 4 weekly only.

I also do not dispute the fact that there would be significant Edmonton-Asia traffic, but would there be enough to warrant a non-stop route? The stats from that website could be misleading. Again, if there are actually 400+ passengers a day just YEG-HKG, and not even taking into account any seasonal variation, which could increase that to maybe 650 per day in the peak travel months, I am surprised there is not a direct link already. Even if that 400-600 per day (to just HKG) were fed through (for eg) YVR that would be more than enough just to fill AC's daily YVR-HKG putting aside any other traffic that route would have (including YVR-HKG O+D!!). The only other logical connecting points to get to HKG from YEG would be SFO or even SEA (which would require an additional change as no direct SEA-HKG atm). So how are all these people getting to HKG?

I am just questioning that website's validity. If you look at some other airports on that website, there is some pretty shabby information on there. Kelowna is using 2007 info, Montreal says Sunwing is new and Winnipeg's comments about it's Filipino community is hilarious, to paraphrase their marketing - "Lots of Filipino nationals live here and they like to visit their homeland at least once a year, therefore, you should fly to Manila from here!"... bunch of rubbish to take this site too seriously.

[hilman]

I totally agree with you and this link should be taken with a grain of salt but its hard to fathom a busy city and Northern region like this can only support one long haul flight per day? Are there really only 200-250 people a day flying to Europe and beyond from here? Same goes for Asia?

I must be delusional but to me something doesn't add up

[Rocket252]

I believe when it comes to routing it is simply a case of the "hub" model currently in use in Canadian aviation overriding any perceived passenger counts coming out of some of the non hub cities mentioned above.

There are exceptions of course - YEG - LHR being one of them where AC has felt a direct route is warranted.

[LO 044]

Originally Posted by EdmTrekker

I fly to LHR (as I will soon do again) and buy separate tickets on BA from LHR to my destination and return. $69.00 including taxes in CA each way this time to Paris with hrly flights. If I fly from YYZ etc I lose 1 day getting to Paris as no matter how I fly the AC flights are evening from YUL and YYZ. With AC YEG to LHR I leave at 5:50 pm, sleep overnight arrive early into LHR and catch a flight using BA booked separately (obviously). On my return this time I am taking the Eurostar into London (39 pounds) then Piccadilly Line (5 pounds) cause I have time. Train price = BA price. Bottom line is that with low low BA prices out of LHR - London has become a great connecting point. I see many airlines are shrinking their foorprint at FRA - so the future may not be so friendly for FRA in a few years. MUC and BBI (BBI going to be THE place) for connections in Germany.

Are you going over to Paris with a briefcase and a carry on only? It makes a difference lugging suitcases and having kids with you when changing terminals. I assume BA doesn't fly out of the same terminal as AC. Also, Paris perhaps works as a simple connection but many places in Europe do not. Another issue i always tend to see when trying to route through LHR is that the YEG-LHR is not priced very competitively. Still, i will try to go through LHR next year when heading to the mother land.

I was wondering if your AC flight has ever been delayed and you missed your connecting BA flight. I am curious how "friendly" BA is about bumping you to their next flight to CDG AND if there was a fee to change the ticket. Again, hourly flights to CDG may not be a big deal but if you're flying to BUD or PRG.....

I can't disagree more about FRA. LH's hubs are in FRA and MUC and MUC in particularly will continue to grow. BBI could be a white elephant for a while. LH has already stated that they do not plan to create a hub at BBI and i could see LH reacting only when Air Berlin creates a route to compete with. Sound familiar? Air Berlin concentrates more on Dusseldorf than Berlin and BBI will have a pittance of true international flights.

Here is a current list of intercontinanetal routes from BBI:
New York JFK - Air Berlin, Delta (seasonal)
New York EWR - Continental
Miami - Air Berlin
Bangkok - Air Berlin
Doha - Qatar Airways
Dubai - Air Berlin
Beijing - Hainan
Mombasa - Air Berlin
Ulan Bator - Miat Mongolian Airlines
Varadero - Air Berlin
Punta Cana - Air Berlin
Phuket - Air Berlin

[Airboy]

LHR is tough to get across if you need to make a connection. BA is a long.......long walk from AC. Time wise, LHR- BBI was about 4 hour between flights when I book in March. I always plan for possible delays as we don't like running through airports.

Frankfurt is as bad when making connection, I've never walked so far to get basically to the same location.

However that said. YEG LHR significantly reduces our travel time to Europe. Based on the last 3 trips we reduced our total time by an average of 4.5 hour.

The only hell trip was to Sicily, Edmonton Toronto Munic Rome Palermo, 26 hours, missed flights and delays. plus getting through Rome's airport was a bitch.

[Airboy]

I can't disagree more about FRA. LH's hubs are in FRA and MUC and MUC in particularly will continue to grow. BBI could be a white elephant for a while. LH has already stated that they do not plan to create a hub at BBI and i could see LH reacting only when Air Berlin creates a route to compete with. Sound familiar? Air Berlin concentrates more on Dusseldorf than Berlin and BBI will have a pittance of true international flights.

Once the consolidation of airports in Berlin is complete I think there's the chance of seeing more Air Berlin movement there.

Tegal is supposed to be closed this year.

[dansk]

Knowing the audience in here, if YEG only had a flight to FRA the same people would probably be complaining about how connections are better out of LHR.

LHR works for where YEG is currently. Be happy that you have at least the LHR route. Build upon it by continuing to support it, and FRA or something else is on the books. It is coming . . . just wait (and not this year).

I fly out of YEG to LHR to many places. I can't believe how much people are b!tching about connecting. It isn't hard. be thankful you aren't connecting at ORD, YYC, YYZ or YUL before LHR or FRA.

My next flight is to OSL and I only have a 2hr lay over... My last flight was 3, but that's when you grab a pint and relax. Heck, I've been stuck in ORD and DEN with 7 hour layovers.

People this is YOUR airport. This is YOUR city. Air Canada and WestJet are business focused companies...they both work like most airlines in the world...hubs. They are not out to get Edmonton, they are out to make money. They actually service Edmonton fairly well (both) be happy.

I'm not saying to stop asking for more; but stop whining about what you already have. There is more coming just focus on building up, not tearing down those that will be providing those connections.