Highways in Canada

[Acajack]

I've always thought that twinning either 11 or 17 wouldn't be too bad a project to do. I mean, sure it would be expensive especially due to the length, but a lot of the heavy lifting was done when the right-of-ways for the first roads were already blasted and cleared decades ago. There would likely be some blasting and clearing required, but for much of the routes it looks like you already have a decent right-of-way for four lanes that's already there.

You could just cut some trees, lay down a widened road bed and put a median barrier (concrete or cable-stayed) down the middle.

As well, for much of the route you'd need very few interchanges and overpasses as there are no towns or cross roads.

[swimmer_spe]

Both.

Well, divide 17 from the Soo to the Ottawa Area, and from Thunder Bay to the MB border. Divide 11 between North Bay and Nipigon.

Those are the truck routes and they are the least challenging. They would automatically get most truck traffic if they were divided.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've always thought that twinning either 11 or 17 wouldn't be too bad a project to do. I mean, sure it would be expensive especially due to the length, but a lot of the heavy lifting was done when the right-of-ways for the first roads were already blasted and cleared decades ago. There would likely be some blasting and clearing required, but for much of the routes it looks like you already have a decent right-of-way for four lanes that's already there.

You could just cut some trees, lay down a widened road bed and put a median barrier (concrete or cable-stayed) down the middle.

As well, for much of the route you'd need very few interchanges and overpasses as there are no towns or cross roads.

Some of them could even be at grade. I am thinking how many are between North Bay and Gravenhurst.

[hipster duck]

If there's ever a candidate for twinning any section of the TCH, it's the two lane section of the Malahat north of Langford.

It's crazy to think that Victoria's connection to the rest of Vancouver Island is threaded through a two lane stretch of road with no redundancy other than a small ferry from Brentwood Bay.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

If there's ever a candidate for twinning any section of the TCH, it's the two lane section of the Malahat north of Langford.

It's crazy to think that Victoria's connection to the rest of Vancouver Island is threaded through a two lane stretch of road with no redundancy other than a small ferry from Brentwood Bay.

Yes... but it'll never happen. Too many tree hugging hippies that do not see the real damage done elsewhere in the province.

[Airboy]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Yes... but it'll never happen. Too many tree hugging hippies that do not see the real damage done elsewhere in the province.

the section through Goldstream will be the tough portion. I don't see anyway through there without disturbing that great section of park.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Airboy

the section through Goldstream will be the tough portion. I don't see anyway through there without disturbing that great section of park.

A different route to the west and south of the rail line. But then everyone cries about how close it is to the reservoir for their drinking water.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

If there's ever a candidate for twinning any section of the TCH, it's the two lane section of the Malahat north of Langford.

It's crazy to think that Victoria's connection to the rest of Vancouver Island is threaded through a two lane stretch of road with no redundancy other than a small ferry from Brentwood Bay.

Blame the tree huggers there.

I wonder if it makes more sense to bypass it with a new bridge? Even though that would be a lot more expensive...

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

The thing is that 17 needs to be twinned to the soo regardless.

Also 11 likely will need to be twinned to Timmins someday as well, especially if the mining industry gets out of its funk.

[eemy]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Also 11 likely will need to be twinned to Timmins someday as well, especially if the mining industry gets out of its funk.

11 doesn't go to Timmins...

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

The thing is that 17 needs to be twinned to the soo regardless.

In the northeast:

For highway 17, maybe between North Bay and the Sault. East of North Bay, traffic is very light until you hit Petawawa (check out the AADT from the MTO), east to Ottawa has a long term plan for extending the 417.

While highway 11 is overall the easier highway to divide, the sections between North Bay and New Liskeard and Beardmore and Nipigon would probably destroy the MTO's budget for decades. Outside of the Rockies, it is about the most miserable terrain possible for a divided highway. Lots of grades, rivers, lakes, rock and swamp. The best I could see is a 2+1 on those stretches. In fact, the rural sections of 11 and 17 in the northeast are least deserving of a divided highway IMO. More passing lanes, absolutely, but the volume just collapses north of North Bay and west of the Sault.

In the northwest, I could see the impetus for dividing highway 17 west of Thunder Bay to Manitoba. All the cross-country traffic is concentrated onto one highway so you have trucks and tourist traffic mixing it up. Along with the fact that certain sections are pretty substandard as is. It wouldn't be a 400-series highway, but it would be my choice for where to start.

[craneSpotter]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

If there's ever a candidate for twinning any section of the TCH, it's the two lane section of the Malahat north of Langford.

It's crazy to think that Victoria's connection to the rest of Vancouver Island is threaded through a two lane stretch of road with no redundancy other than a small ferry from Brentwood Bay.

Yes it is crazy - and most of us who live here ...agree!

A contract to add nearly 5km of 4 lane highway from Shawnigan Lake Road to just south of Aspen Road - along with associated service roads around the Malahat Village area to access businesses and residences - has been tendered and bid on. Project should start in April.

A second contract to 4-lane from Leigh Road interchange to Goldstream park should come out early next year - design underway. But that is only ~1km and will include a signalized intersection with the soon to completed West Shore Parkway.

I think making the Malahat 4 lane from the Leigh Road interchange thru to Bamberton is more political than environmental. It was identified as the #1 priority by ALL Islanders during the formation of the MoTIs 10 year transportation plan.

PS - it would appear the MoTI have even stopped doing traffic counts on the Malahat - no counting stations seem to exist right now or for some time - traffic must be up since the last time they told us the capacity of the Malahat highway was just fine for up to 30k vehicles a day

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by The Chemist

While I'll grant you that the western half of the G30 does pass through a few large-ish population centres, the Xinjiang stretch is still pretty desolate.

And I doubt the route to Lhasa has more people living along it, for the simple reason that most of the route between Golmud, Qinghai province (the current western terminus of the G6) and Lhasa is extremely high elevation (much of it >4500m) - the Qingzang (Tibet) Plateau on the northern half of the route, and the Himalaya on the south. The physical geography makes it every bit as desolate as Northern Ontario, and the altitude only makes it worse.

Xinjiang has 24 million people. Neighbouring Gansu has 26 million. In other words, this region that you describe as close to the emptiness of northern Ontario is more populated than all of Canada. That route to Lhasa, I'll grant you, is much more comparable. And if completed it will probably be the most isolated freeway in the world. Still, I'm not sure that a highway built by the world's largest dictatorship to a region that it conquered by force is all that relevant to our own infrastructure priorities.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Mountains! I 90 goes through the Blue, Cascade, and Rocky Mountain ranges. Please tell me how these are less rugged than Northern Ontario. I have traveled throughout Northern Ontario.

That's why I said mostly flat. I'm aware of the mountain ranges. Those mountainous areas also have more people living in them than northern Ontario. Spokane's metro alone as big as all of northern Ontario's cities combined. Besides, Ontario's north is more rugged and difficult to build in than most people give it credit for.

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

The thing is that 17 needs to be twinned to the soo regardless.

Need is a strong word. Cities comparable to the Soo often don't have divided highways leading to them. Bergen, Norway for example. There are other, less expensive ways to improve transportation and safety to isolated cities.

[speedog]

Pffft, highway 61 between Etzikom and Manyberries needs to be brought up to a freeway standard.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by wave46

In the northeast:

For highway 17, maybe between North Bay and the Sault. East of North Bay, traffic is very light until you hit Petawawa (check out the AADT from the MTO), east to Ottawa has a long term plan for extending the 417.

While highway 11 is overall the easier highway to divide, the sections between North Bay and New Liskeard and Beardmore and Nipigon would probably destroy the MTO's budget for decades. Outside of the Rockies, it is about the most miserable terrain possible for a divided highway. Lots of grades, rivers, lakes, rock and swamp. The best I could see is a 2+1 on those stretches. In fact, the rural sections of 11 and 17 in the northeast are least deserving of a divided highway IMO. More passing lanes, absolutely, but the volume just collapses north of North Bay and west of the Sault.

In the northwest, I could see the impetus for dividing highway 17 west of Thunder Bay to Manitoba. All the cross-country traffic is concentrated onto one highway so you have trucks and tourist traffic mixing it up. Along with the fact that certain sections are pretty substandard as is. It wouldn't be a 400-series highway, but it would be my choice for where to start.

What they should do is upgrade the sections near towns and the busy areas to 4 lanes. Then connect them with 4 lanes. Those quieter places, add passing lanes more often.

Again, divided highways are not just for traffic volume, but traffic safety. Drive in a whiteout on a 2 lane and then on a 4 lane. You tell me which feels safer to you.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

divided highways are not just for traffic volume, but traffic safety. Drive in a whiteout on a 2 lane and then on a 4 lane. You tell me which feels safer to you.

Requoted for truth.

Also. it would be an act of nation building to have a divided highway system in the country reinforced and supported by a national expressway from coast to coast.

[jmt18325]

It would also be a giant waste of money in some areas. It's far better to upgrade the highways that most need upgrading.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by Mister F

Need is a strong word. Cities comparable to the Soo often don't have divided highways leading to them. Bergen, Norway for example. There are other, less expensive ways to improve transportation and safety to isolated cities.

Bergen, Norway is hardly comparable. It would quite probably be the most difficult city on the planet to bring a 4 lane road to. There are dozens of 20+km long, kilometres deep fjords separating it from the rest of populated Norway, as well as dozens of mountain peaks. It doesn't even have a real proper road link of the regular variety that is relatively direct. The drive to Stavanger, the nearest population centre, is merely 200km, but takes over 5 hours and multiple ferries. Norway really is not a "typical" example of road building, as the terrain in that nation is some of the most difficult on the planet.

Connecting the Soo to Sudbury with a divided highway would require around 200km of upgraded highway. Its pretty big, but you could start by getting Espanola connected, and stretching it out from there. Focus on Town bypasses. Massey, Blind River, etc.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by speedog

Pffft, highway 61 between Etzikom and Manyberries needs to be brought up to a freeway standard.

Is Manyberries as delicious as it sounds?

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Bergen, Norway is hardly comparable. It would quite probably be the most difficult city on the planet to bring a 4 lane road to. There are dozens of 20+km long, kilometres deep fjords separating it from the rest of populated Norway, as well as dozens of mountain peaks. It doesn't even have a real proper road link of the regular variety that is relatively direct. The drive to Stavanger, the nearest population centre, is merely 200km, but takes over 5 hours and multiple ferries. Norway really is not a "typical" example of road building, as the terrain in that nation is some of the most difficult on the planet.

Connecting the Soo to Sudbury with a divided highway would require around 200km of upgraded highway. Its pretty big, but you could start by getting Espanola connected, and stretching it out from there. Focus on Town bypasses. Massey, Blind River, etc.

Bergen was just the first example I saw on a map. I could name many others. Like Hastings, New Zealand. Or Jyvaskyla, Finland. Or Inverness, Scotland​. All of which are significantly closer to a major city than Sault Ste. Marie. A 300+km freeway/expressway between two cities the size of Sudbury and the Soo would be quite unusual. Cheaper solutions like passing lanes or a 2+1 setup are more common

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Requoted for truth.

Also. it would be an act of nation building to have a divided highway system in the country reinforced and supported by a national expressway from coast to coast.

The value of a cross-country expressway costing tens of billions of dollars as a nation building exercise is dubious. Other large, sparsely populated nations like Australia, Brazil and Russia don't seem too​ worried about it. Or even many wealthy small countries.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Mister F

Is Manyberries as delicious as it sounds?


Bergen was just the first example I saw on a map. I could name many others. Like Hastings, New Zealand. Or Jyvaskyla, Finland. Or Inverness, Scotland​. All of which are significantly closer to a major city than Sault Ste. Marie. A 300+km freeway/expressway between two cities the size of Sudbury and the Soo would be quite unusual. Cheaper solutions like passing lanes or a 2+1 setup are more common


The value of a cross-country expressway costing tens of billions of dollars as a nation building exercise is dubious. Other large, sparsely populated nations like Australia, Brazil and Russia don't seem too​ worried about it. Or even many wealthy small countries.

Inverness is getting a motorway to the rest of the UK by 2025.

http://www.transport.gov.scot/project/a9-dualling-perth-inverness