Highways in Canada

[craner]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Most of Highway 17 is 2 laned. And it is over 2000km.

Anyone out there just have a baby? They likely wont see that all 4 laned in their lifetime.

Oh I agree - that is why I put "just" get through Ontario in quotations.

[craner]

Originally Posted by milomilo

There are still parts of Highway 1 east of Calgary that need to be fixed up to proper freeway standards. Even ignoring the countless access road intersections, there is a set of signals immediately east of Calgary, then lights through Strathmore, then lights through Medicine Hat, then in Sask there's lights in Swift Current, Moose Jaw, Regina (for now)...

There's a lot of work to do.

Once again I agree, that is why I said "divided highway" and not freeway.
Although a freeway would be nice, it's probably not required for stretches through the hinterland. It should be a freeway in and around the more urban areas IMO.

[Innsertnamehere]

I don't care too much about freeway, but I think freeflow is desirable. Even if there is some limited access and at-grade intersections, not having stoplights would be desirable.

It's not going to happen anytime soon, however. Northern Ontario needs 2,000km of twinning, and MTO is advancing around 15km annually in the north for all highway twinning, and a lot of that is on 69, not the Trans Canada. at that rate you are looking at over a century for the whole thing to be 4 lanes.

I would like to see more upgrades in the Ottawa Valley, and the municipalities in the area are really pushing for a 417 extension to Petawawa, but it just doesn't seem to be happening. maybe one day.

[haljackey]

Right now it's simply faster for most Canadians to go through the US and south of Lake Superior & Michigan.

If relations with the US somehow deteriorate to the point where it becomes next to impossible to cross the border, expect some major infrastructure investment on Highway 17.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

There are no lights in Swift Current nor Moose Jaw. Once the Regina Bypass is complete the TCH in Saskatchewan will be light free. In Manitoba there are lights in Brandon, Yellowhead/TCH intersection and several points between Portage La Prairie and Winnipeg. There is uncontrolled access throughout the prairies as well.

My mistake, there are no lights but there are uncontrolled low standard intersections and lowered speed limits.

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

Is there a plan for that light between Chestemere and the start of Stoney Trail?

Bypasses through the Hat and Strathmore would be nice but didn't Medicine Hat already spend a ton of money updating the bridge and building a couple of overpasses on the east side of the city?

The Government of Alberta actually does have 'plans' for a ton of upgrades and bypasses on all the major routes including all you mentioned and much more. But I guess they will only be built on an as needed basis.

If you are bored, they're all in here:

http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/projects/index.html

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by milomilo

My mistake, there are no lights but there are uncontrolled low standard intersections and lowered speed limits.



The Government of Alberta actually does have 'plans' for a ton of upgrades and bypasses on all the major routes including all you mentioned and much more. But I guess they will only be built on an as needed basis.

If you are bored, they're all in here:

http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/projects/index.html

If they had the money the entire Trans Canada in AB would controlled access freeway. The big bang items should be built sooner than later especially with costs being lower than they'll probably ever be again.

[Mister F]

There's no freeway (or even at-grade twinned highway) in the world that crosses an expanse as vast, rugged and empty as northern Ontario. They simply don't exist. It's completely unnecessary and would be a waste of many billions of dollars that could be spent on much more urgently needed projects.

There are lots of other ways to improve highways like the TCH through northern Ontario. 2+1 highways for example.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Mister F

There's no freeway (or even at-grade twinned highway) in the world that crosses an expanse as vast, rugged and empty as northern Ontario. They simply don't exist. It's completely unnecessary and would be a waste of many billions of dollars that could be spent on much more urgently needed projects.

There are lots of other ways to improve highways like the TCH through northern Ontario. 2+1 highways for example.

I 90 when it passes through Washington, Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming comes to mind.

It needs to be divided. The snowstorms cause problems that a barrier between the 2 directions would make safer.

There are more than 1 reason to divide a highway.

[The Chemist]

Originally Posted by Mister F

There's no freeway (or even at-grade twinned highway) in the world that crosses an expanse as vast, rugged and empty as northern Ontario. They simply don't exist. It's completely unnecessary and would be a waste of many billions of dollars that could be spent on much more urgently needed projects.

I'd say the Chinese G30 Expressway, which runs all the way from the Yellow Sea in Jiangsu Province to near the Kazakh border in Xinjiang Autonomous Region comes close. West of Xi'an, China becomes MUCH less densely populated, and that's only about half way for this expressway.

The G6 (Beijing-Lhasa) Expressway, when complete, will definitely pass through an area every bit as vast and empty, and way more rugged, than northern Ontario.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I 90 when it passes through Washington, Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming comes to mind.

It needs to be divided. The snowstorms cause problems that a barrier between the 2 directions would make safer.

There are more than 1 reason to divide a highway.

Originally Posted by The Chemist

I'd say the Chinese G30 Expressway, which runs all the way from the Yellow Sea in Jiangsu Province to near the Kazakh border in Xinjiang Autonomous Region comes close. West of Xi'an, China becomes MUCH less densely populated, and that's only about half way for this expressway.

The G6 (Beijing-Lhasa) Expressway, when complete, will definitely pass through an area every bit as vast and empty, and way more rugged, than northern Ontario.

I90 goes through mostly flat, easy to build terrain and and isn't quite as empty as northern Ontario. Plus the American transportation model is hardly one worth emulating. The G30 passes through several cities west of Xi'an with populations in the millions - it's way more populated than Hwy 17. Even the route to Lhasa has more people living along it.

I think you guys are underestimating just how empty northern Ontario is, especially west of the Soo. This population density map, while imperfect, gives a pretty good impression. Northern Ontario, being mostly uninhabited, shows up as mostly white. The routes of the other three highways mentioned have more population along them. This map tells a similar story.

There are countless undivided highways that deal with snowstorms. That's nothing new or unique to this highway. Projects like alternate routes at choke points, passing lanes, and 2+1 design are perfectly adequate and common elsewhere.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by The Chemist

I'd say the Chinese G30 Expressway, which runs all the way from the Yellow Sea in Jiangsu Province to near the Kazakh border in Xinjiang Autonomous Region comes close. West of Xi'an, China becomes MUCH less densely populated, and that's only about half way for this expressway.

The G6 (Beijing-Lhasa) Expressway, when complete, will definitely pass through an area every bit as vast and empty, and way more rugged, than northern Ontario.

Thanks for mentioning that. I remember reading and seeing things about this project but couldn't think of the name. The terrain is definitely a lot more rugged than northern Ontario. The Guozigou Bridge is an amazing engineering feat and looks stunning. Here's a video of it.

• Video Link

[The Chemist]

Originally Posted by Mister F

I90 goes through mostly flat, easy to build terrain and and isn't quite as empty as northern Ontario. Plus the American transportation model is hardly one worth emulating. The G30 passes through several cities west of Xi'an with populations in the millions - it's way more populated than Hwy 17. Even the route to Lhasa has more people living along it.

While I'll grant you that the western half of the G30 does pass through a few large-ish population centres, the Xinjiang stretch is still pretty desolate.

And I doubt the route to Lhasa has more people living along it, for the simple reason that most of the route between Golmud, Qinghai province (the current western terminus of the G6) and Lhasa is extremely high elevation (much of it >4500m) - the Qingzang (Tibet) Plateau on the northern half of the route, and the Himalaya on the south. The physical geography makes it every bit as desolate as Northern Ontario, and the altitude only makes it worse.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Mister F

I90 goes through mostly flat, easy to build terrain and and isn't quite as empty as northern Ontario. Plus the American transportation model is hardly one worth emulating. The G30 passes through several cities west of Xi'an with populations in the millions - it's way more populated than Hwy 17. Even the route to Lhasa has more people living along it.

I think you guys are underestimating just how empty northern Ontario is, especially west of the Soo. This population density map, while imperfect, gives a pretty good impression. Northern Ontario, being mostly uninhabited, shows up as mostly white. The routes of the other three highways mentioned have more population along them. This map tells a similar story.

There are countless undivided highways that deal with snowstorms. That's nothing new or unique to this highway. Projects like alternate routes at choke points, passing lanes, and 2+1 design are perfectly adequate and common elsewhere.

Mountains! I 90 goes through the Blue, Cascade, and Rocky Mountain ranges. Please tell me how these are less rugged than Northern Ontario. I have traveled throughout Northern Ontario.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I 90 when it passes through Washington, Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming comes to mind.

It needs to be divided. The snowstorms cause problems that a barrier between the 2 directions would make safer.

There are more than 1 reason to divide a highway.

The problem becomes which highway do you divide through the northeast? Highway 11 or 17? You'll never sell the need for both to be divided and each serves its own 'niche' if you will - 11 handles trucking traffic and 17 is the scenic touristy route.

The northwest is easier to justify in the sense that there is only one route.

[MonctonRad]

Divide Highway 11. It's the principal trucking route, is less subject to snowsqualls off the lake, and there is a string of small towns along it's length that the 17 doesn't really have.

[Taeolas]

I don't know the routes, but when the choice is between "Scenic Touristy Route" and "Trucking Route", the "Trucking Route" should be the no brainer to twin. It gets the heavier traffic (literally), and can pick up the A to B traffic, lessening the load on the Tourist route, making it more appealing to the tourists and those wanting to take the scenic route in general.

[Innsertnamehere]

The thing is that 17 needs to be twinned to the soo regardless.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Divide Highway 11. It's the principal trucking route, is less subject to snowsqualls off the lake, and there is a string of small towns along it's length that the 17 doesn't really have.

It's also less challenging geotechnically speaking.

[eemy]

Volumes on 11 are so low that I'm not really sure what twinning would accomplish. It's also pretty flat and straight, so it doesn't really improve safety or speed significantly either. 17, on the other hand, still gets a fair bit of freight traffic (although a lot less in winter), and would be significantly safer with separated lanes and better opportunities for passing. Neither has the volume to really justify twinning, though.

[niwell]

Based on personal experience driving on far too many of northern Ontario's highways, I found 17 between Thunder Bay and Kenora to be by far the worst by volume. Lots of truck backups that you can't always get by in a single passing lane area. 11 across the northeast was a relative breeze.

17 in the NE was a mixed bag. Very busy between Sudbury and SSM, but peters off quickly to the north of the city.