Surrey Langley Skytrain - Expo Line Extension | Proposed

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Vancouver is a model for Transit Oriented Development. Name me a station that is older than the Canada Line that has not see growth?

Originally Posted by officedweller

Like Nanaimo Station or 29th Ave. Station?
Even Commercial Broadway Station has barely seen growth - certainly not on a scale warranted by 2 SkyTrain lines.

Also: 22nd Avenue on the Expo line as well as Lake City Way on the Millenium Line.

Still, the amount of Skytrain-centered growth is impressive.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

So Justin Trudeau just said he won’t stand in the way if Surrey decides to switch technologies, essentially confirming that the funding and support will still be there.

Well federal election's in a year folks.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Also: 22nd Avenue on the Expo line as well as Lake City Way on the Millenium Line.

Still, the amount of Skytrain-centered growth is impressive.

In my memory, both Sperling-Burnaby Lake and Lake City Way have very low boarding, because they're essentially in the middle of nowhere. Overall, Millenium Line along Lougheed Highway doesn't see high ridership. It's the only skytrain line where I'm guaranteed a seat. (Expo Line? Not always. Canada Line? I only get to sit if I take it from the termini.)

22nd Street (if that's what you meant) should have a decent usage, though, as people use it to transfer to other buses (especially 410, 104, and 340). It's like Braid Street (until Evergreen Line was opened).

Oops my bad I digressed.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

22nd Street (if that's what you meant) should have a decent usage, though, as people use it to transfer to other buses (especially 410, 104, and 340).

Yes - 22nd Street, not Avenue - my bad.

But the topic under discussion wasn't passenger volumes at the stations but rather transit oriented development around the stations, and the query about whether there were any stations that hadn't experienced such development. I think 22nd Street serves as an example of that.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Yup.

Chicken and the egg debate.

Build to shape growth (as the Millennium Line was done),
or to serve existing growth?

When you build through low density areas ripe for future growth there are a lot fewer headaches.



Like Nanaimo Station or 29th Ave. Station?
Even Commercial Broadway Station has barely seen growth - certainly not on a scale warranted by 2 SkyTrain lines.

It's probably because it's also the loudest Skytrain Station, and adding more demand nearby would be a detriment on such a high-use station.

[Dengler Avenue]

But yea back to development, I'm gonna cite some "examples".

Evergreen Line was opened, and 97 B-Line was gone.

However, 180 (formerly C24), which serves locally along the skytrain route, from Lougheed Town Centre to Port Moody Station, saw an increase in frequency, first during weekend midday, then later on over the weekend, too (from every 30 minutes to every 20 minutes). I suppose that means the area along North Road became even more developed after Evergreen Line was opened?

Also, 160, which used to be an infrequent bus route, has also become part of FTN. I guess that implies further development of the Highway 7B* corridor?

Granted, ALR (and the park between King George Boulevard and 148th Street) will make it a bit hard to justify extending Expo Line to Langley Centre, but outside of that, what's there to worry? Or did I miss something??

* I forgot the actual name. Is it Barnett Highway or St John's Street?

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

But yea back to development, I'm gonna cite some "examples".

Evergreen Line was opened, and 97 B-Line was gone.

However, 180 (formerly C24), which serves locally along the skytrain route, from Lougheed Town Centre to Port Moody Station, saw an increase in frequency, first during weekend midday, then later on over the weekend, too (from every 30 minutes to every 20 minutes). I suppose that means the area along North Road became even more developed after Evergreen Line was opened?

Also, 160, which used to be an infrequent bus route, has also become part of FTN. I guess that implies further development of the Highway 7B* corridor?

Granted, ALR (and the park between King George Boulevard and 148th Street) will make it a bit hard to justify extending Expo Line to Langley Centre, but outside of that, what's there to worry? Or did I miss something??

* I forgot the actual name. Is it Barnett Highway or St John's Street?

Barnet Hwy is Hwy 7A on the map. (In Port Moody it's referred to as both for some reason.)

This irks me every time when someone brings the ALR excuse to not have SkyTrain to Langley Centre. People NoF think that anything past 168th is countryside. By this logic the Expo Line shouldn't cross the river in the early 90s when it's just industrial wasteland.

[Dengler Avenue]

I actually have an idea: Skytrain platform on the 2nd (if not 3rd) floor and farmer’s market on the 1st floor of the station?

I mean, an actual, full-fledged farmer’s market. Even if that’s not feasible, we can have it within visible distance of the station.

[Dengler Avenue]

The only problem is, grade separation between Pacific Highway (176th Street) and Fraser Highway in the future (if traffic warrants an interchange there) will be impossible by B.C. standard~~~

[BirchTrain]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I actually have an idea: Skytrain platform on the 2nd (if not 3rd) floor and farmer’s market on the 1st floor of the station?

I mean, an actual, full-fledged farmer’s market. Even if that’s not feasible, we can have it within visible distance of the station.

You can do your grocery shopping right as you get off from work/school!

New West station is kind of like that, but with way more businesses and a Safeway instead of a farmers market.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

In my memory, both Sperling-Burnaby Lake and Lake City Way have very low boarding, because they're essentially in the middle of nowhere.

… also because City of Burnaby is sticking to its planning principles of serious densification (i.e. residential) only at the 4 town centres (Brentwood, Lougheed, Metrotown & Edmonds)… which is actually pretty admirable.

Lake City Station and Production Way are light industrial areas and won't fall to the residential developers (unlike light industrial sites in Vancouver).
Not sure what's up with the Dairyland site at Sperling.

************

Anyways, wrt South of Fraser -
I think that the higher levels of government are all deferring to what the local government (Mayor's Council) wants.
The Mayor's Council in turn, defers to what the City of Surrey wants, rather than a group of Metro Vancouver mayors forcing [SkyTrain] down the City of Surrey's throat.
With the change in Surrey council, the change will simply echo back up the government chain to the higher levels.

Likewise, was the old Surrey council responsible for the planning which aligned with the LRT plans?
If so, not surprise that the higher density areas matched up with LRT.
So likewise, if SkyTrain is adopted, the planning will be amended to respond to the SkyTrain nodes (and their phasing) instead.
(i.e. Fleetwood would get higher density zoning than currently planned).

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by officedweller

… also because City of Burnaby is sticking to its planning principles of serious densification (i.e. residential) only at the 4 town centres (Brentwood, Lougheed, Metrotown & Edmonds)… which is actually pretty admirable.

Lake City Station and Production Way are light industrial areas and won't fall to the residential developers (unlike light industrial sites in Vancouver).
Not sure what's up with the Dairyland site at Sperling.

************

Didn't stop Concord Brentwood and Gilmore place from encroaching on industrial...

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Evergreen Line was opened, and 97 B-Line was gone.

However, 180 (formerly C24), which serves locally along the skytrain route, from Lougheed Town Centre to Port Moody Station, saw an increase in frequency, first during weekend midday, then later on over the weekend, too (from every 30 minutes to every 20 minutes). I suppose that means the area along North Road became even more developed after Evergreen Line was opened?

Also, 160, which used to be an infrequent bus route, has also become part of FTN. I guess that implies further development of the Highway 7B* corridor?

It implies that TransLink is encouraging people to use the feeder buses to get to the SkyTrain - it seems to have paid off, since ridership for the #180 basically doubled - and the #160 got another 200k riders - once the Evergreen opened and service increased.

Whether or not that translates into development - as in rezoning and density - is up to the people in charge of the Tri-Cities. Said people are now mostly NIMBYs elected by other NIMBYs, so I'm not holding my breath.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Didn't stop Concord Brentwood and Gilmore place from encroaching on industrial...

At last check, neither Lake City nor Production Way has a mall or major cross-arterial, or a town centre designation. The Gilmore/Brentwood area is becoming another urban hub; the most I'm seeing for PW is an SFU village built around the future gondola.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

It implies that TransLink is encouraging people to use the feeder buses to get to the SkyTrain - it seems to have paid off, since ridership for the #180 basically doubled - and the #160 got another 200k riders - once the Evergreen opened and service increased.

If something really useful suddenly appears on a transit route, then of course more people are going to use the route.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

...180 (formerly C24), which serves locally along the skytrain route, from Lougheed Town Centre to Port Moody Station, saw an increase in frequency, first during weekend midday, then later on over the weekend, too (from every 30 minutes to every 20 minutes). I suppose that means the area along North Road became even more developed after Evergreen Line was opened?

The reason to look specifically at how much Skytrain spurs development vs ridership is because of the housing crisis we have in the Lower Mainland. Increased ridership alone doesn't help the price pressures on housing, and in fact it will tend to exacerbate them because housing located next to rapid transit is more valuable. You need the additional housing units created by transit oriented development. While these new units are pricey (partly because they're new and partly because they're handy to transit), they also serve to relieve pressure on the rest of the housing market.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Vancouver is a model for Transit Oriented Development. Name me a station that is older than the Canada Line that has not see growth?

Nanaimo. 29th Ave.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

At last check, neither Lake City nor Production Way has a mall or major cross-arterial, or a town centre designation. The Gilmore/Brentwood area is becoming another urban hub; the most I'm seeing for PW is an SFU village built around the future gondola.

An SFU-Production Way village could easily be substantial though- I mean, there's always a lot of demand for housing near major universities, after all.

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Nanaimo. 29th Ave.

Originally Posted by fredinno

An SFU-Production Way village could easily be substantial though- I mean, there's always a lot of demand for housing near major universities, after all.

At least Nanaimo and 29th Ave have FTN buses that connect these stations. Lake City and Sperling-Burnaby Lake are in industrial environments with no frequent bus routes connecting them (and no, half-hourly routes don't count). They make Nanaimo and 29th look crowded in comparison. Production Way is popular only because of its proximity to SFU (via the 145).

Back on topic, I'm questioning McCallum about how he's gonna bring up the money for SkyTrain on Fraser Hwy. Knowing his past actions, I'll take him with a grain of salt.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

An SFU-Production Way village could easily be substantial though- I mean, there's always a lot of demand for housing near major universities, after all.

There's already a village beside the campus, with room to grow. I suspect that TransLink will knock down a warehouse or two to build the gondola, then Burnaby'll add a bunch of mixed-use 'rises and dorms in the remaining space, and then that'll be the end of it - Lake City and Production don't exactly have the same potential as Brentwood.