Winnipeg | Downtown | Hudson’s Bay Building | Wehwehneh Bahgahkinahgohn | U/C

[esquire]

Originally Posted by trueviking

I’m curious what a better outcome might have been?

Take your pick of just about any redeveloped downtown department store across the country. The one in Vancouver is a great example of a repurposed department store, much the same way that their old downtown post office was wonderfully repurposed.

But while they get showpiece developments, we got an awful new police station that the former mayor and his cronies made a pile of money on, and now we are about to get what amounts to a community centre. I'm not saying that the need isn't there for what will ultimately go into HBC, but it is a sad statement that this is the best we could hope for, for that building and that location.

[GreyGarden]

Originally Posted by esquire

Take your pick of just about any redeveloped downtown department store across the country. The one in Vancouver is a great example of a repurposed department store, much the same way that their old downtown post office was wonderfully repurposed.

But while they get showpiece developments, we got an awful new police station that the former mayor and his cronies made a pile of money on, and now we are about to get what amounts to a community centre. I'm not saying that the need isn't there for what will ultimately go into HBC, but it is a sad statement that this is the best we could hope for, for that building and that location.

I'm kind of struggling with the disappointment. It feels like the disappointment is less with the proposal and more with the state of downtown Winnipeg. Yes, if this equivalent building was in an equivalent area in some big eastern city, then maybe we could've built 53W53 on top of it. But we're struggling to lease the downtown residential we're building. Just a few weeks ago the 300 Main thread was dominated by us wondering who was going to live in the building and whether there was enough demand for a building like that. If people we're climbing over each other to buy $1,000,000 condos in downtown Winnipeg, then yeah, we could've built some glassy palace extension on the Bay building. But that's just not reality here. The fact they were able to find anyone to take on this project is kind of a miracle in my eyes. Imagine if we were getting a call center instead...

[esquire]

^ That's fair. The proposal is reasonable in light of the circumstances but the circumstances are what is somewhat depressing here.

I wasn't expecting the moon here, I don't expect a 60 storey tower of luxury condos and Goldman Sachs moving their headquarters here or whatever. But you would think something like Victoria's Bay with apartments over retail would not be out of the realm of possibility but alas, it is. That project in Victoria cost close to $300 million for a much smaller building, so that gives you an idea of what to expect for half that amount with a bigger building. It will be on the cheap.

I kind of wonder what might have happened had The Bay been boarded up in 2016. The options may have been a bit better as there was still a little more development activity as compared to now.

[GreyGarden]

Originally Posted by esquire

I kind of wonder what might have happened had The Bay been boarded up in 2016. The options may have been a bit better as there was still a little more development activity as compared to now.

Hard to say, its all speculation at this point, but I suppose any retail component would've been more viable pre-covid, but covid would've still happened and the retail/commercial tenants would've had to figure out the covid and post-covid landscape.

I doubt that a market residential component would've been more viable in 2016 then it is now. There are more medium and high-earners living in downtown Winnipeg now than there were in 2016. So I guess some of those people may have moved into the Bay and we maybe wouldn't have gotten 300 Main or True North. But I suspect the type of environment and amenities that we want for downtown are closer to coming to fruition now than in 2016 (due to more residents).

There is someone on Twitter right now talking about how the residential plans for the Forks should be towers rather than mid rise buildings, but it feels like an argument that is completely detached from the market realities of Winnipeg. They're talking about doubling the planned density of the development to meet "demand", but my observations are that the demand is really soft. Its fun to talk about, but that's kind of all it is. Its another story when you're a city that is bursting at the seams. Then you get to have really interesting discussions about what type of development should occur on a particular site (you have multiple realistic and feasible options). Again, not the story here.

[hello]

Seems like a pretty optimal solution for this building. Big undertaking and i'd be shocked if it came in at budget but nice to see collaboration from all levels of Government and the mixed use nature of the project. Hope it turns out as planned for the Southern Chief's Organization.

[Danny D Oh]

Originally Posted by GreyGarden

Imagine if we were getting a call center instead...

On this front we shouldn't count our chickens before they've hatched, or rule out that some of our chickens will grow up to be call centres or dollar stores. We've had several commercial and alternative purpose light industrial developments eventually be taken over by call centres when finding leases became difficult.

I know dollar stores sell food now, but they are 90% purposeless crap that goes straight to the landfill.

[trueviking]

Esquire. I feel like you are going to jump out and yell GOTCHA at any moment. I truly don’t understand how anyone could be anything but overjoyed with this development. Especially you. You are like the Mikey of this forum. You like everything!

Even if we disregard that it is the largest heritage building redevelopment in the city’s history. Even if we disregard it’s importance to reconciliation.

On an urban level it is nothing short of transformational. What is this about a community centre?!

If the announcement was that someone was buying an empty parking lot and building a 35 storey apartment tower, an 8 storey commercial building, a museum the size of the Inuit Gallery, with ground floor makerspaces, retail, restaurants, and a large programmed civic space for events and gatherings.

Would you not be jumping for joy?

There is twice as much residential as Victoria’s Hudson Development. Far more commercial space. I’m not sure how a 150 unit building could cost $300 million. If that’s true, it is the anomaly not Winnipeg’s project.

When all the tenant fit up is done this will be a $160+ million downtown development. That’s the same construction cost as 42 storey 300 Main. It has twice as many units as True North Square and a similar amount of commercial space. And the great thing about it is the rents will be reduced so it will actually be full all the time. And the people living there won’t be driving their BMW’s to Danardi to shop. They will create a market for downtown and West Broadway.

I truly don’t understand any disappointment. Anyone who thought the solution for a 600,000 square foot empty building would be to add hundreds of thousands more square feet in a tower sticking out the top was not grounded in reality.

For me, I could not imagine a better use for the building. It’s a dream solution.

[esquire]

^ You make a good case for the project

I don't mean to be cranky or a wet blanket. I see this project as a solid community-oriented non-profit type of undertaking. Sort of a super community complex project. Arts, education, child care, affordable housing, etc. All great stuff. But this is the sort of thing you would expect to be built off to the side somewhere.

I've posted a picture of the Vancouver Bay before. It's hard to imagine that piece of real estate becoming, say, the Royal Canadian Legion Super Centre providing much needed housing for veterans, club space for Legions and what not. The ideal is to have that prime location filled with market driven offices, retail space and residential. Then with the tax revenue it generates, you ultimately build the Legion stuff somewhere else, at a lower cost. But that is not our reality and it is a somewhat bitter pill to swallow. Just imagine if instead of a NHL arena down the street the city had built a two-rink rec facility instead... something very necessary for sure, but at a prime location on Portage Avenue?

Maybe once the project materializes and I can see its impact, I'll change my mind. But the fact that someone as easy to please as me has some misgivings about it says something!

I should reiterate that I am grateful to SCO for its leadership and stepping in to fix a problem that that no one else seemed willing or able to deal with. I truly hope there is some benefit to the organization, its members and the people it serves. I do not want it to become a money pit that ultimately weighs down their coffers.

[trueviking]

I think you are getting hung up on the affordable in affordable housing. This isn’t a Manitoba Housing project. We all love the towers U of W is building. It’s no different. It will be students, seniors, families, and urban professionals living there.

What makes this a two rink rec centre and not a first class urban development. I truly don’t understand. It is every bit as good as replacing eatons with a hockey rink. Why do you see it as less? It’s a 35 storey apartment building, and 8 storey office building etc etc. How is that anything but awesome? Why is it a sad community rink and not a big league development?

This is hardly some sad partial use that at least keeps the lights on. This is a massive urban renewal project, the scale of which we rarely see in downtown Winnipeg. How many 300 suite apartment buildings have gone up in the last 20 years? One. How many 80,000 sf office buildings have been built in downtown? How many 40,000 sf galleries? This is big for our city.

The fact that it is not hidden in the dark corners of the city is why it is so exciting to me. There is nothing like this anywhere in the world. An indigenous housing and commercial project at this scale has never been done before. Easily as exciting as a development by a hockey team owner or whatever. I will argue it will be more impactful than True North Square. The future of Winnipeg is 100% reliant on the prosperity of First Nations. This is such an exciting step towards that. Honestly. If some REIT bought it and built 300 more apartments for rich people, I wouldn’t be nearly as excited. This is transformative on so many levels. On a social level, an urban level. It couldn’t be better. It’s a perfect Winnipeg project. Will be a model for Indigenous people around the world. Makes my heart race thinking about the possibilities.

It’s a first class project. Not a sad community rink. It has four times the budget of the 120 unit tower going up on Donald at St Mary’s.

[trueviking]

I’m not sure why there is such concern for SCO. Would anyone worry about the business plan if it were 24/7 intouch or whoever? They are not doing this for charity. They see opportunity.

[post_man]

Originally Posted by trueviking

Would anyone worry about the business plan if it were 24/7 intouch

kind of

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by post_man

kind of

This isn't real, is it? Looks like a 1970s paint job on a abandoned heritage building.

[esquire]

^ Haha, no, it's a joke.

But to answer vike's question... I wouldn't worry if it was 24/7 In Touch's business plan because a) I'm pretty confident they know what they're doing and making sound decisions about office space is within their wheelhouse and b) if worse comes to worst then it's not the end of the world if 24/7 goes under.

Whereas SCO is a political/governance organization and as we know, those types of organizations don't always make the best call with this kind of stuff given the political considerations at play (see City of Winnipeg, ad infinitum). And given the nature of SCO, I think a lot of people are depending on the work they do... I'd hate to see them get burned because they got talked into biting off more than they could chew.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by trueviking

The future of Winnipeg is 100% reliant on the prosperity of First Nations.

ABSOLUTELY! I've seen different numbers but roughly 12% of Winnipeg's population identifies as First Nations, while the national average is 4-5%. Working for the prosperity of First Nations people will go a long way towards reducing the social ills the city deals with AND revitalize property in a way that benefits the community at large.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Haha, no, it's a joke.

Phew!

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Haha, no, it's a joke.

But to answer vike's question... I wouldn't worry if it was 24/7 In Touch's business plan because a) I'm pretty confident they know what they're doing and making sound decisions about office space is within their wheelhouse and b) if worse comes to worst then it's not the end of the world if 24/7 goes under.

Whereas SCO is a political/governance organization and as we know, those types of organizations don't always make the best call with this kind of stuff given the political considerations at play (see City of Winnipeg, ad infinitum). And given the nature of SCO, I think a lot of people are depending on the work they do... I'd hate to see them get burned because they got talked into biting off more than they could chew.

opertunity takes vision, vission takes risk

with out an org like sco taking this opertunity how els can fn move forward as small groups on their own. united they are stronger as u can pool and create opportunity like what sco is ment to do invest and build wealth for its members let it be long term or short term investments from cultural to financial.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Haha, no, it's a joke.

But to answer vike's question... I wouldn't worry if it was 24/7 In Touch's business plan because a) I'm pretty confident they know what they're doing and making sound decisions about office space is within their wheelhouse and b) if worse comes to worst then it's not the end of the world if 24/7 goes under.

Whereas SCO is a political/governance organization and as we know, those types of organizations don't always make the best call with this kind of stuff given the political considerations at play (see City of Winnipeg, ad infinitum). And given the nature of SCO, I think a lot of people are depending on the work they do... I'd hate to see them get burned because they got talked into biting off more than they could chew.

SCO did not get talked into anything. I'm not sure why you are portraying them as some podunk organization that is getting suckered into a ponzi scheme. They are driving this development and have very astute leaders. They see a valuable business opportunity and are taking it. They are every bit as capable as any other developer.

They represent 10% of all First Nations. This is not some fly-by-night organization.

[drew]

The thing I like best about this development is that SCO is utilizing local consultants that I have worked with, and we can all trust to make this happen.

They aren't farming out the design work out of province, which is always a risk if some some big splashy developer would have had a go at this building.

[thebasketballgeek]

300 units means adding 500-600 people to an area that is reaching a very respectable density. The foot traffic will definitely increase because Indigenous people generally use more sustainable modes of transportation such as walking, cycling or transit.

Now can we please make the infrastructure on Colony/Portage to be more pedestrian friendly? It shouldn’t take more then 10 seconds to cross an intersection in an inner-city neighbourhood but that intersection the size of a Basketball court makes it take 25-30 seconds just to cross the street. Extending that bike lane on Memorial to Portage hopefully is a part of the redevelopment.

[zalf]

During the ceremony, someone on the SCO side (I forget exactly who - one of the MCs? One of the chiefs?) mentioned that something about working on the plan for a year and a half, which would mean they started moving on the opportunity as soon as it became available. It wasn't something slapped together last minute without due consideration.

Three layers of government are involved in funding it, plus HBC's contribution of the building. HBC got a specific mention for providing helpful criticism. All of those have political or public relations incentives for the project to be successful, and have reviewed the project. I'm confident in it.