Protests and their effects on Ottawa

[daud]

OK Serious questions here.

My thoughts are the police would remove the remaining protesters if it was safe to do so. They keep saying "dangerous" "volitile" and "public safety".

So, question 1-is the challenge strictly logistical or is there a known threat of violence that isn't being divulged to the public?

Question 2. Justin Trudeau has been removed from his home for 6 days now for safety reasons and now apparently also covid. Is this a general precaution for his safety or is there a specific threat?

What if question 1 and 2 are more closely related to each other than just being part of the same movement?

I'm becoming concerned the situation is actually far more dangerous than we are being told and I really hope I am wrong about this. I can't believe this is still going on and if they don't clear it out by weekend, it will grow again this Saturday.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Ahh. The new standard. "No riot."

But residents in the core have to stay in or flee their homes and businesses and schools have to close.

So in other words, just hand over the downtown core to any group that is intimidating enough. Guess, next time, BLM should show up with tractor trailers and start harassing residents on the streets. That way they can guarantee they won't get arrested. Because, "fear of escalation".

Yes, a riot is literally the worst outcome, no? We have seen this untold times. Deaths, injuries, property damage are the likely outcomes in terms of seriousness. Downtown residents will be badly affected in a riot, especially if buildings are set ablaze.

I am arguing tactics to preserve order.

If your solution is send in the police and escalate at the peak of the (reasonably peaceful) demonstration, I disagree.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Yes, a riot is literally the worst outcome, no? We have seen this untold times. Deaths, injuries, property damage are the likely outcomes in terms of seriousness. Downtown residents will be badly affected in a riot, especially if buildings are set ablaze.

I am arguing tactics to preserve order.

If your solution is send in the police and escalate at the peak of the (reasonably peaceful) demonstration, I disagree.

Like I've said, I don't expect them to try and shut down the protests. I expect them to try and protect and residents and businesses from harassment and interference. They can absolutely make it clear to the mob that they can't impose themselves on private property and citizens.

If the argument becomes that any enforcement at all will lead to incitement, then why even bother paying the cops $800k per day for security? Just use that money to compensate businesses that have to shut down because of intimidation that is now apparently legal.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by daud

OK Serious questions here.

My thoughts are the police would remove the remaining protesters if it was safe to do so. They keep saying "dangerous" "volitile" and "public safety".

So, question 1-is the challenge strictly logistical or is there a known threat of violence that isn't being divulged to the public?

Question 2. Justin Trudeau has been removed from his home for 6 days now for safety reasons and now apparently also covid. Is this a general precaution for his safety or is there a specific threat?

What if question 1 and 2 are more closely related to each other than just being part of the same movement?

I'm becoming concerned the situation is actually far more dangerous than we are being told and I really hope I am wrong about this. I can't believe this is still going on and if they don't clear it out by weekend, it will grow again this Saturday.

The protesters have charter rights, the police can’t just remove them. Ironically the Liberals opposed Tory proposal that would make blocking key economic infrastructure illegal. The existing criminal code requires “disturb the peace tumultuously” to invoke the riot act, which would be a hard case to make for a jackass laying on the horn. Businesses or residents could try to get a court order. Police could also start issuing parking tickets.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Like I've said, I don't expect them to try and shut down the protests. I expect them to try and protect and residents and businesses from harassment and interference. They can absolutely make it clear to the mob that they can't impose themselves on private property and citizens.

If the argument becomes that any enforcement at all will lead to incitement, then why even bother paying the cops $800k per day for security? Just use that money to compensate businesses that have to shut down because of intimidation that is now apparently legal.

The police are the last resort, but don’t have thousands of bodies to protect every business. The Rideau Centre was cleared by the cops peacefully. I suspect they didn’t expect people to harass the homeless shelter, so were caught unaware.

The fact that violence was near nonexistent is a win. They can start taking a more firm line this week with the few protestors who remain.

Ultimately, I digress and my final thought is that the police did a decent, albeit imperfect job of policing. Which is different than the military mindset of considering the mob an enemy to be defeated.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Ahh. The new standard. "No riot."
".

I'd say that in such situations, "no riot" is a pretty good top-level strategic objective.

[daud]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The protesters have charter rights, the police can’t just remove them. Ironically the Liberals opposed Tory proposal that would make blocking key economic infrastructure illegal. The existing criminal code requires “disturb the peace tumultuously” to invoke the riot act, which would be a hard case to make for a jackass laying on the horn. Businesses or residents could try to get a court order. Police could also start issuing parking tickets.

I agree the court injunction route is the most effective legal way to go. I wasn't really curious about the means-I'm just very concerned there are specific threats to trudeau and I'm increasingly concerned one of those trucks could contain a fertilizer bomb or something. I suspect the police are concerned as well but I wonder if its general precautionary concern or if they know more than they are telling us. Have the police been warned for example?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Ok. You are in command at the operations centre.

What are the likely consequences of hundreds of highly visible arrests? Does the mob get angrier? Do people start throwing rocks at the cops? The Rideau Centre is not very far from Parliament Hill - it is visible.

The police should have been at the shelter, but I actually think that was an unexpected event. Generally, people have avoided those places.

I get your feelings. I do. I am trying to think like a tactical operations coordinator here.

Yes. Truenorth's enthusiasm for a bunch of individual arrests assumes that the people in the immediate vicinity (who will mostly be fellow protestors or at least sympathizers) will simply stand around and do nothing in reaction to what is going on.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by daud

I agree the court injunction route is the most effective legal way to go. I wasn't really curious about the means-I'm just very concerned there are specific threats to trudeau and I'm increasingly concerned one of those trucks could contain a fertilizer bomb or something. I suspect the police are concerned as well but I wonder if its general precautionary concern or if they know more than they are telling us. Have the police been warned for example?

Oh, if there was a suspicion that one of the trucks had a bomb of any kind they wouldn't be letting people mill around and much of downtown would have been evacuated. There would be no screwing around with that.

But it is very possible as you say that there is intel that we're not aware of and that explains some of the decision-making that people find illogical.

All bomb talk aside, it's definitely possible that there are guns in a lot of those trucks.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The protesters have charter rights, the police can’t just remove them. Ironically the Liberals opposed Tory proposal that would make blocking key economic infrastructure illegal. The existing criminal code requires “disturb the peace tumultuously” to invoke the riot act, which would be a hard case to make for a jackass laying on the horn. Businesses or residents could try to get a court order. Police could also start issuing parking tickets.

There's noise bylaws for the horn jackass. Try blowing an airhorn at 2am tonight and doing it for 1-2 hrs. See if the cops don't show up at your house with a citation.

I think it would have been hard to cite all the truckers. But that guy who had a train horn heard kms away? They should have ticketed that guy.

[daud]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Oh, if there was a suspicion that one of the trucks had a bomb of any kind they wouldn't be letting people mill around and much of downtown would have been evacuated. There would be no screwing around with that.

But it is very possible as you say that there is intel that we're not aware of and that explains some of the decision-making that people find illogical.

All bomb talk aside, it's definitely possible that there are guns in a lot of those trucks.

Agreed.

At the end of the day, (famous Jim Watson phrase) I think this situation might be far more dangerous than we are being told and I think there is negotiation happening that might shock some of us. I wouldn't even be surprised if Chief Sloly has info he hasn't given the mayor. Their tone in the presser yesterday could not have been more different.

[Truenorth00]

If the situation is so dangerous the we're worried about a heavily armed mob and/or possible explosions, this isn't a protest anymore. It's terrorism.

I don't buy the threat is at that level. If there was, you'd have CAF counter-IED teams and snipers in Ottawa. And possibly even more than that. I'm sure the cops are mostly just scared of good old fashioned rioting.

[Truenorth00]

Also, let's be clear. This is now about more than just the weekend. There's businesses who have delayed opening a week or more in the core. That's pretty rough coming off a long forced closure.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/we-ca...-a63af955d18b/

[Acajack]

Pretty sure there have been police snipers on rooftops during this protest.

[daud]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If the situation is so dangerous the we're worried about a heavily armed mob and/or possible explosions, this isn't a protest anymore. It's terrorism.

I don't buy the threat is at that level. If there was, you'd have CAF counter-IED teams and snipers in Ottawa. And possibly even more than that. I'm sure the cops are mostly just scared of good old fashioned rioting.

Trust me, I hope you are right. I just have increasing worries it could be more. The verbage coming out of Chief Sloly yesterday set a tone that they are being very very careful-hopefully all precautionary.

[GeoNerd]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Pretty sure there have been police snipers on rooftops during this protest.

There are always snipers on the roof around the Parliamentary Precinct during events or when house/senate/etc. is sitting. Next time you’re downtown take a look around the rooftops. They are there.

[Truenorth00]

The Beaverton is calling out OPS inaction. When satire gets too real:

Ottawa Police issue apology to protesters for any inconvenience they may have caused

OTTAWA – The Ottawa Police Service issued a statement apologising to the protesters that descended on the nation’s capital this past weekend for any trouble their presence may have caused to members of the convoy.

“While it may seem from early reports that demonstrators were able to act with total impunity, we want to express our regret if any of our officers got in their way.”

“These demonstrators are concerned citizens who are worried for their safety and well-being, unlike the residents of Ottawa who keep reporting complaints to us,” said Cst. Alvin Leapyear. “For the time being, this demonstration against lockdowns is why we are advising all residents to stay at home and for businesses to remain closed.”

....

A spokesperson for the Ottawa Police said, “We prefer to leave these people unprovoked to avoid inciting violence, just as we usually do. It’s not like these are frenzied environmentalists agitating for a livable habitat. They are simply passionate people with a legitimate grievance… they hate Trudeau, or love COVID, or something like that. For that reason we are going to watch from a respectful distance and if any Ottawa citizen calls for assistance we will definitely write it down in our notebooks.”

Cst. Madino added, “I had a great time regardless. I hope they come back every year.”

https://www.thebeaverton.com/2022/01...y-have-caused/

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GeoNerd

There are always snipers on the roof around the Parliamentary Precinct during events or when house/senate/etc. is sitting. Next time you’re downtown take a look around the rooftops. They are there.

Yes, but in this case I believe they've brought in additional ones from out-of-town forces.

Riot squads from Toronto and other GTA forces were also in town over the weekend, though not sure if they've left since then.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If the situation is so dangerous the we're worried about a heavily armed mob and/or possible explosions, this isn't a protest anymore. It's terrorism.

Two protestors were arrested in Nanaimo yesterday for protesting old growth forest destruction. Doesn't seem like they were doing anything at the level that we're seeing in Ottawa - they stood in an intersection.

But yeah, Ottawa is shut down for its fifth consecutive day.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by daud

I agree the court injunction route is the most effective legal way to go. I wasn't really curious about the means-I'm just very concerned there are specific threats to trudeau and I'm increasingly concerned one of those trucks could contain a fertilizer bomb or something. I suspect the police are concerned as well but I wonder if its general precautionary concern or if they know more than they are telling us. Have the police been warned for example?

They don’t seem to be responding as if there were specific threats against Trudeau. They certainly could have kept protesters far away from Rideau Cottage with little effort. I seems more likely he went to Harrington Lake as an easier place to do their COVID isolation.