Protests and their effects on Ottawa

[Marshsparrow]

Day 5 - what I have learned is that laws, bylaws and enforcement don't matter. The rights of these hooligans is more important than the residents. Being scared of escalation is acceptable even if homophobia, racism and transphobia are on display.

Rolling out the red carpet with escorts, free parking, etc. is not a winning strategy.

There is no plan to have them leave. The residents of downtown, centretown and the market have been abandonned.

The major, council and police are a disgrace.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The person who posted the video is an active RCN Commodore. He claims they climbed on the grave AFTER he told them what it was. Here's the tweet:



https://twitter.com/S_Thornton_332/s...CZyvR2qhA&s=19

I can't believe you're still defending these assholes. Says a lot.

I am not defending anything. Read the post I was responding to.

The other poster is alleging that everyone around thought it was awesome that she was dancing on the tomb, and that they were all supportive of that.

That's not what the video or other evidence shows.

In any event this person and her friends are likely too dense to understand the significance of the unknown soldier's tomb or the cenotaph.

Which doesn't excuse anything a priori but it does make conspiracy theories about deliberate intent to desecrate them totally ridiculous.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

An honest question: What do you want the police to do?

Preempt? Barricade the city? Ban all protests?

Had the police started arresting people as they rolled into the city (On what charges?) it would have likely turned ugly as social media would have caused the protestors to regroup in a chaotic way. They might have turned their ire on somewhere not expecting it. At least Ottawa knew what was coming; had the mob descended on somewhere else (Montreal, Toronto, Kingston) not prepared, it might be uglier.

I don’t approve of the mob, but heavy handed tactics are generally their own reward. By letting the mob freeze and thin out, the police can clear the more extreme elements with less risk of a riot.

I definitely agree with you and with the police approach, but I think the time has come for a change in strategy.

[hwy418]

Originally Posted by Marshsparrow

Day 5 - what I have learned is that laws, bylaws and enforcement don't matter. The rights of these hooligans is more important than the residents. Being scared of escalation is acceptable even if homophobia, racism and transphobia are on display.

Rolling out the red carpet with escorts, free parking, etc. is not a winning strategy.

There is no plan to have them leave. The residents of downtown, centretown and the market have been abandonned.

The major, council and police are a disgrace.

wrong quote

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I definitely agree with you and with the police approach, but I think the time has come for a change in strategy.

I would like to think that the forthcoming revocation of restrictions will serve to defuse a lot of the anger.

I am curious how we approach these things in the future, should they be a regular occurrence.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

I would like to think that the forthcoming revocation of restrictions will serve to defuse a lot of the anger.
.

Not sure that will come soon enough for what's going on in Ottawa.

Softening of measures is a matter of weeks, whereas this Ottawa situation needs a resolution measured in days, if not hours.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

I am curious how we approach these things in the future, should they be a regular occurrence.

Well, the typical Canadian approach would be to turn the page and then make like it won't ever happen again, right?

[hwy418]

Originally Posted by thewave46

An honest question: What do you want the police to do?

Preempt? Barricade the city? Ban all protests?

Had the police started arresting people as they rolled into the city (On what charges?) it would have likely turned ugly as social media would have caused the protestors to regroup in a chaotic way. They might have turned their ire on somewhere not expecting it. At least Ottawa knew what was coming; had the mob descended on somewhere else (Montreal, Toronto, Kingston) not prepared, it might be uglier.

I don’t approve of the mob, but heavy handed tactics are generally their own reward. By letting the mob freeze and thin out, the police can clear the more extreme elements with less risk of a riot.

Well... they can start by getting off their a$$es and do their jobs dealing with shit like harassing residents.

That would be start. Geez - we wouldn't want to offend anyone!

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by hwy418

Well... they can start by getting off their a$$es and do their jobs dealing with shit like harassing residents.

That would be start. Geez - we wouldn't want to offend anyone!

I am more asking what to do before the mob gets there.

Once you have the mob, you are stuck doing a balancing act.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Well, the typical Canadian approach would be to turn the page and then make like it won't ever happen again, right?

It is the Canadian way.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not sure that will come soon enough for what's going on in Ottawa.

Softening of measures is a matter of weeks, whereas this Ottawa situation needs a resolution measured in days, if not hours.

Not sure how many are left, so that makes the recommendation hard.

When the group is smaller, the enforcement can get more firm.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by thewave46

An honest question: What do you want the police to do?

Stay by ticketing the most egregious offenders. And if they don't comply arrest them.

That doesn't mean the whole mob. That doesn't mean stopping protests.

Personally, I think that entire mob inside the Rideau Centre should have been arrested once they refused to leave. Likewise the protesters who threatened staff at the shelters.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by hwy418

Well... they can start by getting off their a$$es and do their jobs dealing with shit like harassing residents.

That would be start. Geez - we wouldn't want to offend anyone!

There's quite a few folks who seem to think downtown residents are disposable and should just put up with shit.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Stay by ticketing the most egregious offenders. And if they don't comply arrest them.

That doesn't mean the whole mob. That doesn't mean stopping protests.

Personally, I think that entire mob inside the Rideau Centre should have been arrested once they refused to leave. Likewise the protesters who threatened staff at the shelters.

Ok. You are in command at the operations centre.

What are the likely consequences of hundreds of highly visible arrests? Does the mob get angrier? Do people start throwing rocks at the cops? The Rideau Centre is not very far from Parliament Hill - it is visible.

The police should have been at the shelter, but I actually think that was an unexpected event. Generally, people have avoided those places.

I get your feelings. I do. I am trying to think like a tactical operations coordinator here.

[Jimmy Nimby]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If we are being honest the violent BLM protests were all in the US and there was almost no violence or damage in the similar protests in Canada.

Though yes the Indigenous railway blockades in early 2020 did last about 2 months before they were lifted or broken up. Those weren't Idle No More though, if I recall. They were in support of Wetsuweten elders in BC who wanted to block a pipeline project through their land.

And there was almost no violence or damage in the trucker protests.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Ok. You are in command at the operations centre.

What are the likely consequences of hundreds of highly visible arrests? Does the mob get angrier? Do people start throwing rocks at the cops? The Rideau Centre is not very far from Parliament Hill - it is visible.

The police should have been at the shelter, but I actually think that was an unexpected event. Generally, people have avoided those places.

I get your feelings. I do. I am trying to think like a tactical operations coordinator here.

Alright, let's hear your solution. Is it to simply write off the downtown core and surrender it to the mob? Cause that is what it sounds like.

[caveat.doctor]

I think in general enforcement of laws (they are listed at https://www.ottawapolice.ca/en/safet...onstators.aspx, pasted below for convenience) has been fairly lax around protests in recent years. Even though enforcing them to prevent the specific things people aren't allowed to do would not have stopped the protestors from making their points and being heard. Whether it was the railway blockades in 2020, the toppling of statues last year, and now the ongoing intimidation here in Ottawa, they are all things that we as a society have already said are not acceptable by creating laws against them, and we expect the police to enforce them.

I think that's the bigger issue - these people really do think their actions are justified, and the overall message society has sent is that if you dig in when you are breaking the law, the police will back down.

I don't buy the idea that as a blanket rule, "no enforcement" was possible out of fear of escalation. I would have thought at the very least, legal options could have been pursued from the very beginning (e.g. injunctions against obstruction or causing disturbances) to "remind" people of simple common sense behaviour when exercising the right to protest.

Now I don't think it's the Mayor's or the Councillor's place to direct or order how the police do their work - that would be politicising enforcement - but I do think it is their place to clearly tell the Chief on behalf of residents that we are not satisfied. Of course it's common sense that we don't expect officers to take on a crowd when they are outnumbered or be reckless in wading into a hostile situation - but we do expect some show of force and resolve on behalf of the law. Tickets on vehicles, visible presence at the entrance to the Rideau Centre when the first people started walking in without masks, visible patrols with arrests within the residential areas for breaches of the peace (as per below, not leading to charges but simply to restore order) come to mind as "less confrontational" starting points, for example.

https://www.ottawapolice.ca/en/safet...onstators.aspx
The Supreme Court has recognized that "freedom of expression does not extend to protect threats of violence or acts of violence. It would not protect the destruction of property, assaults, or other clearly unlawful conduct." In addition, in some cases, the reasonable limits prescribed by law will also apply.

Section 1 of the Charter, which provides for limitations on rights and freedoms, states:1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it, subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

The following is a list of some of the relevant Criminal Code sections that limit certain activities:

• blocking or obstructing a highway (Section 423(1)(g))
• causing a disturbance (Section 175)
• common nuisance (Section 180)
• interfering with transportation facilities (Section 248)
• breach of the peace or imminent breach (Section 31)
• offensive volatile substance (Section 178)
• riots (Sections 32, 33, 64, 65, 67, 68, 69)
• unlawful assembly (Section 63)
• mischief (Section 430)

An arrest for breach of the peace, whether under the Criminal Code or the common law, does not result in a charge. [i.e., being arrested for breaching the peace does not lead to any legal fallout - it can be done without worry that people might end up with criminal records or disproportionate consequences] The purpose of an arrest for breach of peace is to restore order.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Alright, let's hear your solution. Is it to simply write off the downtown core and surrender it to the mob? Cause that is what it sounds like.

Do exactly what they did this weekend. The proof is in the pudding.

There was no riot. The altercations were minor. Property damage was minimal. No injuries or deaths happened.

Now, with a greatly reduced crowd, I can start ticketing and enforcing the law more firmly without having to send in riot police.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Do exactly what they did this weekend. The proof is in the pudding.

There was no riot. The altercations were minor. Property damage was minimal. No injuries or deaths happened.

Now, with a greatly reduced crowd, I can start ticketing and enforcing the law more firmly without having to send in riot police.

Ahh. The new standard. "No riot."

But residents in the core have to stay in or flee their homes and businesses and schools have to close.

So in other words, just hand over the downtown core to any group that is intimidating enough. Guess, next time, BLM should show up with tractor trailers and start harassing residents on the streets. That way they can guarantee they won't get arrested. Because, "fear of escalation". Basically the message here, is, if your crowd is big and intimidating enough, we'll let you get away with a lot more.

I'm genuinely starting to wonder if the cops would have actually done anything if there was widespread violence. Or whether their "fear of escalation" would have had them just "monitoring".

[Acajack]

Since Jim Watson is leaving, he won't be taken to task this fall by voters for his handling of this.

What is surprising is that there isn't a potential candidate for the mayoralty who has jumped to the fore and made himself or herself a very visible and adamant "crusader" for Ottawans on this one.

It's political strategy 101 - don't let a crisis go to waste.