Spring Garden Streetscape

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Someone should take an inventory of businesses on SGR that are currently operating (no doubt many on life support already due to the lockdown) and then do a comparison in a year's time when this is done and the street is made hostile to visitors from outside the immediate neighborhood. We could well see SGR turned into a much larger and more tragic Granville Mall wasteland.

There is already an inventory of sorts, done passively by Google Maps streetside shots.

It will be interesting to see the difference once it's all finished and has been operating as such for a couple of years. Somehow I don't think the words "hostile" and "tragic" will be the descriptors that people will be using, though.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

It will be interesting to see the difference once it's all finished and has been operating as such for a couple of years. Somehow I don't think the words "hostile" and "tragic" will be the descriptors that people will be using, though.

Perhaps "foolhardy" will be a better descriptor for HRM's Planning unit sandboxing various textbook theories their heads were filled with in planning school using actual private businesses as victims guinea pigs to determine whether the theories are valid.

[atbw]

There's a good amount of natural churn going on already on SGR with a coupe longer-term players. I don't see as much waxing about levelling a block of the street for development, and the challenges that imposes, as I do the redevelopment of the street itself.

Granville Mall fails because it fails to go anywhere. It's a little cobblestone park on the edge of Cogswell, where nobody walks from.

SGR is a pedestrian-focused retail street and transit throughway, and while the changes in this project will disrupt both, as a result will ultimately better serve those users for years to come.

[mleblanc]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Someone should take an inventory of businesses on SGR that are currently operating (no doubt many on life support already due to the lockdown) and then do a comparison in a year's time when this is done and the street is made hostile to visitors from outside the immediate neighborhood. We could well see SGR turned into a much larger and more tragic Granville Mall wasteland.

Yes, because that clearly happened to Argyle St, despite you repeatedly warning us of the future ghost town

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by mleblanc

Yes, because that clearly happened to Argyle St, despite you repeatedly warning us of the future ghost town

Retail is fleeing and it is strictly a street for boozers and party types. Seems an odd thing for HRM the Good to be promoting with tax dollars.

[mleblanc]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Retail is fleeing and it is strictly a street for boozers and party types. Seems an odd thing for HRM the Good to be promoting with tax dollars.

Retail is fleeing? Are you referring to Biscuit, the single retail shop on a street dominated by restaurants and bars? Every other business (pre-pandemic) was flourishing, and I'm happy my tax dollars go towards these projects.

You've already stated on multiple occasions that you don't visit downtown often. For those of us who do: it's a vibrant street with a great energy, and I'm certainly not a "boozer or party type". I hope the Spring Garden project goes well and can match the success of Argyle.

[atbw]

Originally Posted by mleblanc

Retail is fleeing? Are you referring to Biscuit, the single retail shop on a street dominated by restaurants and bars? Every other business (pre-pandemic) was flourishing, and I'm happy my tax dollars go towards these projects.

You've already stated on multiple occasions that you don't visit downtown often. For those of us who do: it's a vibrant street with a great energy, and I'm certainly not a "boozer or party type". I hope the Spring Garden project goes well and can match the success of Argyle.

Argyle is great - it’s nice to have a city that actually has a nightlife - there’s a bit of retail but it’s been by and large a food and drink street. I live a few blocks from SGR and am there every other day in more open times, and have no doubt the area will be fine.

On another note: was listening to the piece on CBC this morning and I think the archaeological aspect of this project is going to be really exciting. We’re digging deep down under one of the oldest streets in the city — I’m wondering what we’ll run into in terms of surprises.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by mleblanc

You've already stated on multiple occasions that you don't visit downtown often.

That's true. Mainly because none of my social circle go DT now either. Since we do not work DT there is no longer any reason to go there, especially given how difficult HRM has made it for those who do not live close by to do so. So now when we get together we go to places in areas that welcome us and our vehicles, since we live all over the place and need to drive. Buses are impractical and nobody would be caught dead on a bicycle of course.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by atbw

On another note: was listening to the piece on CBC this morning and I think the archaeological aspect of this project is going to be really exciting. We’re digging deep down under one of the oldest streets in the city — I’m wondering what we’ll run into in terms of surprises.

Delays in the project timeline, most likely.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by atbw

On another note: was listening to the piece on CBC this morning and I think the archaeological aspect of this project is going to be really exciting. We’re digging deep down under one of the oldest streets in the city — I’m wondering what we’ll run into in terms of surprises.

That sounds most interesting!

[Keith P.]

Not satisfied with being unable to kill all businesses on SGR with the never-ending streetscape project keeping the street shut down, now HRM's genius planners want to deliver the coup de grace:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scot...-spring-garden-road-buses-only-1.6262880

Halifax planners are proposing a yearlong pilot project to reserve Spring Garden Road for buses only, meaning no cars would be allowed on the street between South Park and Queen streets from 7 a.m. until 8 p.m.

A section of Spring Garden Road has been closed for construction for streetscape improvements since June and is expected to reopen in January. The planners have proposed launching the project to start then.

Part of the idea, according to a report tabled at the transportation standing committee Thursday, is to help improve the reliability of transit buses.

"A 7 a.m. to 8 p.m. daytime transit pilot is recommended as it allows for the improved reliability of transit, while allowing for general vehicle use of the street at times when transit and general traffic volumes are lower," reads the report. "Vehicle drivers will also add more 'eyes on the street' in the evenings and overnight, potentially."

Planner Elora Wilkinson told the committee the project should launch as soon as the streetscaping work currently underway wraps up, as drivers haven't been able to use the street since June 2021.

Never let municipal planners determine the success of failure of your business, since that is a subject about which they know nothing. And of course Mason is in favor of this, which means it is a bad idea almost by definition.

I wonder what percentage of retail customers patronizing SGR storefronts arrive via Transit. I expect the number to be tiny given Transit is a last-resort option and not one often used by the carriage trade.

[DigitalNinja]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Not satisfied with being unable to kill all businesses on SGR with the never-ending streetscape project keeping the street shut down, now HRM's genius planners want to deliver the coup de grace:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scot...-spring-garden-road-buses-only-1.6262880




Never let municipal planners determine the success of failure of your business, since that is a subject about which they know nothing. And of course Mason is in favor of this, which means it is a bad idea almost by definition.

I wonder what percentage of retail customers patronizing SGR storefronts arrive via Transit. I expect the number to be tiny given Transit is a last-resort option and not one often used by the carriage trade.

I don't understand how this makes a difference. No one parked on Spring Garden any vehicle on it was just using it as a thoroughfare. All the side streets are staying the same.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Not satisfied with being unable to kill all businesses on SGR with the never-ending streetscape project keeping the street shut down, now HRM's genius planners want to deliver the coup de grace:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scot...-spring-garden-road-buses-only-1.6262880




Never let municipal planners determine the success of failure of your business, since that is a subject about which they know nothing. And of course Mason is in favor of this, which means it is a bad idea almost by definition.

I wonder what percentage of retail customers patronizing SGR storefronts arrive via Transit. I expect the number to be tiny given Transit is a last-resort option and not one often used by the carriage trade.

I think this must have been part of their evil plan all along. First shut down the street for reconstruction, then tell the motorists they are banned from using the street after the fact. Yeah, that's the ticket...........

The war on the car continues.

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Not satisfied with being unable to kill all businesses on SGR with the never-ending streetscape project keeping the street shut down, now HRM's genius planners want to deliver the coup de grace:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scot...-spring-garden-road-buses-only-1.6262880




Never let municipal planners determine the success of failure of your business, since that is a subject about which they know nothing. And of course Mason is in favor of this, which means it is a bad idea almost by definition.

I wonder what percentage of retail customers patronizing SGR storefronts arrive via Transit. I expect the number to be tiny given Transit is a last-resort option and not one often used by the carriage trade.

I feel like SGR's not a significant thoroughfare for most vehicles, so this isn't a huge deal *shrug*

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

I have to wonder how councillor Mason arrived at the pedestrian/bus street he mentioned in Scotland. Was he was beamed-in ala Star Trek or did he utilize the excellent roads, bus and rail system that we can only wish we had here? I too have enjoyed the pedestrian streets of both Edinbrough and Glasgow. I arrived by rail followed by a short walk.

I also have to say that my impression has been that the cars on SPG were the only thing that kept the buses down to a reasonable speed. Once unencombered by cars, I can see this 'raceway' being an excellent spot for buses to make up time lost on clogged streets and bridges.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Arrdeeharharharbour

I have to wonder how councillor Mason arrived at the pedestrian/bus street he mentioned in Scotland.

There's a notorious phenomenon in city planning, the city councillor who goes somewhere for 2 days on a conference, sees something different and tries it out as a tourist, then wants it in his or her own city.

The classic example is streetcars which are fun to ride but often don't perform well for rush hour commuters who get caught in traffic snarls.

Of course that is not to say that Waye Mason couldn't have carefully dispassionately considered this idea. And all that aside, maybe it is a good idea. There isn't that much for motorists right on SGR. Most parking is structured parking on the side streets and the blocks are short so dropping off pedestrians around the corner is not a big deal.

One observation is that the diesel buses are themselves often some of the worst vehicles for noise and pollution, and it will probably be a while before they're all electric.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by eastcoastal

I feel like SGR's not a significant thoroughfare for most vehicles, so this isn't a huge deal *shrug*

I honestly agree. This promises to make it less chaotic/noisy, easier and safer for cycling (which is a big deal for a city-centre main street with tens of thousands of people in easy cycling distance), and more efficient as a transit route. Those are all big wins that will easily offset the minor effect on auto traffic.

There's no reason not to try this on for a few months and see how it works.

[atbw]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I honestly agree. This promises to make it less chaotic/noisy, easier and safer for cycling (which is a big deal for a city-centre main street with tens of thousands of people in easy cycling distance), and more efficient as a transit route. Those are all big wins that will easily offset the minor effect on auto traffic.

There's no reason not to try this on for a few months and see how it works.

I agree. It's not a functional street for cars as a thoroughfare because of the pedestrian traffic, transit stops etc. The parking garages (of which there's at least 1 on every side street off SGR) will still be accessible. I often wonder how much traffic was generated on SGR simply by virtue of people circling the blocks looking for a free parking spot. You could make every block of SGR free parking and people would still complain about parking there. Why not just prioritize what actually moves people through there: transit and foot traffic.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by atbw

I agree. It's not a functional street for cars as a thoroughfare because of the pedestrian traffic, transit stops etc. The parking garages (of which there's at least 1 on every side street off SGR) will still be accessible. I often wonder how much traffic was generated on SGR simply by virtue of people circling the blocks looking for a free parking spot. You could make every block of SGR free parking and people would still complain about parking there. Why not just prioritize what actually moves people through there: transit and foot traffic.

It's pretty normal to separate out the "destination" or shopping streets from vehicle thoroughfares that are meant to allow travel between the destinations. Of course in Halifax there aren't always multiple paths that can be used to efficiently move lots of traffic over long distances.

In Europe the cities often have some pedestrian-only zones and many Halifax-sized cities have transit beyond buses. Halifax has a couple of awkward aspects. The inner city is or is becoming as dense as those European cities with good transit and pedestrian areas, but the outer metro is low density and hard to service with transit. And Halifax is in an in-between size where buses become a stretch in the busy corridors but something like LRT seems like a stretch while a big underground subway system is still too expensive.

Back in the 60's there was an idea that the core should be suburbanized so that people living in far-flung car-oriented areas can drive to a downtown shop or office tower like they drive to a strip mall or office park. I don't think this worked out well at all. It frustrated people while ruining the inner city.

[Half-Axed]

Originally Posted by eastcoastal

I feel like SGR's not a significant thoroughfare for most vehicles, so this isn't a huge deal *shrug*

Agreed. Between South Park and Queen is precisely the stretch I already avoid driving on. If I'm going there I park underground or up by the Gardens and walk.

And if I'm not going there why would I drive on it anyway? Something like five crosswalks in the space of 300 metres or so? No thanks.