The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Not really. There's one critical way that SmartTrack/RER and the Scarborough subway differ: the former does not serve Scarborough Centre (instead going a few km away from it), while the latter does. And given that RER is 15 minute frequency whereas existing service to STC is every 5 or something like that, something beyond RER will be needed for STC.

The cost of the Scarborough subway could possibly be reduced by having it follow the current RT corridor instead. Maybe the savings could then be directed to extending the Eglinton line east to meet up with the Lakeshore RER? Does that work?

The Scarborough subway's cost could be reduced by eliminating it completely.

It is completely pointless to have both it and SmartTrack together. If I were to eliminate one, I would definitely eliminate the Scarborough subway, especially since the subway dangles the possibility of future extension at extravagant cost into suburbia, when the Stouffville corridor is right there for the picking.

The much cheaper alternatives for serving Scarborough Town Centre include:

1. The original Transit City LRT
2. Keeping the SRT, with some minor curve modifications, and purchasing new vehicles (I don't know why this isn't even being considered)
3. Building a SmartTrack heavy rail spur, and then running alternating service, with one train going straight downtown, and the other running as a shuttle to Kennedy. Munich runs heavy rail, 9 car S-bahns at 90 second headways, so I think we can pull off 7.5 minute headways with the same equipment.

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I'd rather see money go to transit than prisons, but building a heavy rail SmartTrack about 3 km to the east of another heavy rail Scarborough subway line seems like the biggest waste of transit money in Canadian history.

Isn't it supposed to cost like $8 billion? That's a massive transit investment...

[SkahHigh]

BTW I've been following the Eglinton Crosstown construction on Youtube and I must say I'm jealous... Sure Montreal is going to get these big transit projects but they won't start construction for another 2 years...

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

And $1.7 billion on prisons over ten years works out to $4 million per year per million in population.

Not that much at all.

Since crime rates have been dropping it's a HUGE waste of money.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

Since crime rates have been dropping it's a HUGE waste of money.

Still, have to identify bigger pots of money if you want real higher levels of infrastructure support.

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Still, have to identify bigger pots of money if you want real higher levels of infrastructure support.

You're right and there are plenty of ways to find the funds but wasting $1.7 does not help out transit in anyway.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I'd rather see money go to transit than prisons, but building a heavy rail SmartTrack about 3 km to the east of another heavy rail Scarborough subway line seems like the biggest waste of transit money in Canadian history.

I guess Paris, London, Berlin, Milan, and other world cities have wasted billions building regional rail and subway lines next to each other?

Should we tell London to stop building Crossrail, because it is too close to other subway lines? And don't use the density excuse, because that is just that, an excuse.

The two lines will serve different travel purposes.

[caltrane74]

But with fare integration and frequent service, they will cannibalize each others ridership.

We'll see how it plays out.

[Innsertnamehere]

smart track will likely be too infrequent to cannibalize too much ridership from the subway.

Also, no way in hell smart track ends up costing $8 billion. GO transit is already talking about building out and electrifying their entire 400+km network for $8-10 billion, why one 50km line sharing a lot of infrastructure that GO is already planning will cost just as much leaves me mystified. are they planning to plate the trains in gold or something?

[ssiguy]

I don't know where the $8 figure came from but seems extreme and grossly over inflated.

The corridors are there, the province is paying for the electrification, many of the stations are all ready built, there will be relatively little new track, and it will require little land acquisition. I honestly can't imagine how it would come close to even half that price.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

smart track will likely be too infrequent to cannibalize too much ridership from the subway.

Also, no way in hell smart track ends up costing $8 billion. GO transit is already talking about building out and electrifying their entire 400+km network for $8-10 billion, why one 50km line sharing a lot of infrastructure that GO is already planning will cost just as much leaves me mystified. are they planning to plate the trains in gold or something?

Doesn't the SmartTrack plan include a subway tunnel on Eglinton West off the GO network? That would jack up the price...

I feel like SmartTrack, because it's basically the province's GO RER plan but with more stations in the 416 & TTC fares, will just end up as the City of Toronto contributing funds to GO RER to add more stations and fare integration.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

But with fare integration and frequent service, they will cannibalize each others ridership.

We'll see how it plays out.

Not everyone taking rapid transit in Scarborough is headed to the Union Station area.
For many, the subway would still be the preferred option for travel to the UofT, Yonge & Bloor, and points in the east end along the subway.
Not to mention SmartTrack will not be at STC where all the buses converge.

[Innsertnamehere]

Smart tracks 15 minute frequencies also mean that most of its time savings from speed will be wasted by people sitting on the platform waiting for the train to show up.

[miketoronto]

Lets give a big cheer to Brampton Transit.

In 2014 Brampton Transit surpassed 20 million riders.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

I guess Paris, London, Berlin, Milan, and other world cities have wasted billions building regional rail and subway lines next to each other?

Should we tell London to stop building Crossrail, because it is too close to other subway lines? And don't use the density excuse, because that is just that, an excuse.

The two lines will serve different travel purposes.

You're comparing apples and oranges.

For starters, most European cities didn't build RER-type lines from scratch. They were incremental improvements to existing lines, many of which were multi-tracked, grade-separated and electrified to begin with. Much of what we know of as the RER was basically differently-branded suburban service. All they had to do was add some ticketing machines and print some lines on a map and voila.

This is quite a bit different from SmartTrack, where you have to take a single track, diesel rail line built for occasional freight haulage with grade crossings and turn it into something resembling rapid transit.

Secondly, it's not the density of these European cities - it's how they have been oriented to transportation systems. Dense or not, Scarborough is completely car-oriented. You have 4 lane arterial roads with left turn lanes every 1 km on a grid and every commercial and residential unit comes with parking standards. Find me a European city that's built like that. Not only does it make transit difficult, it makes urban village-style densification around transit lines nearly impossible.

Finally, for most people in Scarborough, SCC is not a destination in itself, but a transfer point for buses originating in the north and east to the rapid transit system. In that sense, the "need" to serve SCC with heavy rail subway is not a given. You could just as easily have buses from north of the 401 transfer to SmartTrack at Agincourt station, or closer to Finch, and you could have buses from south of the 401 transfer to a mega-station at Kennedy (SmartTrack + subway + Eglinton Crosstown LRT + SCC LRT). The remaining service that needs to go to SCC because it needs to serve that area could easily be handled by LRT (the current RT handles less than the King streetcar).

I really think that two, parallel heavy rail systems - one of which is a bonafide subway traveling underground through the suburbs - is complete overkill for this area.

[caltrane74]

A nice map from www.walkerweb.ca

[travis3000]

^ Hahaha yes we can only dream. That map looks perfect.

[333609543]

That has *Nothing* on my map.

By me
Link
Other link
Made using: http://beno.org.uk/metromapcreator/#

[SkahHigh]

From yesterday's city council, we have a few more informations concerning the South Shore LRT which will run on the new Champlain Bridge:
- The LRT will porbably be at ground level
- Entering Downtown, it will run on either Peel Street or Robert-Bourassa Blvd (replacing the elevated Bonaventure Expressway)
- The Caisse will decide the final route of the project in the next 6 months following approval from the Provincial Assembly

[SignalHillHiker]

Just read on BBC that Edmonton is adding a 7-km freeze way through the city for commuters to skate to work during the winter months. That's cool.