Highways in Canada

[libtard]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Brutalist? It's a highway bridge, not an office tower. It's designed by an engineer not an architect. Why is it different than a transit station? Because of exactly that.

And engineering is the main problem with BC highways, they are engineered poorly.

Lets forget the fact that BC is the only place in the North America that puts zero effort into aesthetically improving their highways (and even when it does try, it fails https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.058285,-1...ZFoIKe4TmE7i4ew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en dead logs and shrubs?? just make a nice patch of green grass. This isn't YVR, the fake nature scene looks ridiculous)

BC has huge problems with dips and sinking spots in their highways. This comes from poor compacting of the underlying foundation of the highway which is a result of poor engineering. And please no excuses about the soil. New Jersey was built on a swamp and still manages to have flat, level highway surfaces.

Another problem is BC's refusal to use steel guard rails in some areas. They stand up to crashes just as well as concrete barriers, and they also let debris pass through instead of rocketing back at oncoming cars. Again this comes back to poor engineering. EDIT* oh wait I did find an area that uses steel guard rails, in Chiliwack... in the CENTER of the median! The one place you DON'T use steel guard rails. Why would they install them in the center so debris can pass through.... right into the other lane of on coming traffic!!! For god sakes use them on the shoulders ONLY https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.1387497,-...kk26E3IP0EWoJfg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Yet another problem with engineering for BC highways are the use of supports for overpasses. These for example
https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.0957293,-...VwDqTYxkgUBmH1g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.2324827,-...Ki22PeRZSEtgGtw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
Why are the supports right next to the abutment? It looks absolutely ridiculous. Couldn't they have built the supports INTO the abutment wall like this?
https://www.google.ca/maps/@39.7651107,-...eLPxN68ESgmzkrg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
Value value value engineering. It makes BC highways look bush league.

And finally yes I critique the jersey barriers because they're just hideous. Function over form is great but you can't tell me this https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.1694409,-...2MumsuRAoPEXhPw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
looks better then this


And before you respond with "well none of that is important", like someone else said its important to some people. The same way people critique the font of the exit signs in a subway station, we critique the many different aspects of road infrastructure and BC gets a C- in my books

[Marshal]

Originally Posted by libtard

/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siMglrtvKi22PeRZSEtgGtw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en[/url]
Why are the supports right next to the abutment? It looks absolutely ridiculous. Couldn't they have built the supports INTO the abutment wall like this?

No actually. The reason for this arrangement is not straightforward structural design. Rather, it is the best way to handle lateral earthquake loads/movement. What is required is that the span structure be isolated from the rest. You don't want the two to be hitting each other, and more importantly, you want the span structure to act as a unit, moving as one, independently . . . it then has the highest likelihood of staying together.

Notice on many of our newer overpasses that they have this arrangement as well as a concrete 'break-away' plate at one end of the span. It looks quite odd as the span components are very beefy (helps them stay and act together) and then the connection is completed with a relatively thin concrete slab. This is to further help isolate the main structural systems - the slab will break apart between the abutment and the span.

Oh, and one last thing: it is done this way because it is the spanning structure that is paramount. If a large quake hits, the earthwork structures will fail (they are expected to) but if the span survives, the crossing can be restored relatively easily and quickly. Imagine a region with Vancouver's geography after a 9.0. There will be an overwhelming disruption to all systems, and being able to move around will be very very high up the list of priorities. The more this kind of earthquake design gets built, the better the survival outcome.

And: architects do sometimes work with engineers on civil projects: dams, highways, bridges . . . many large Civil Engineering firms have architects within their staff. A good architect, working on these kinds of projects, can help produce a beautiful product which is economical, within budget or cheaper than some of the totally prosaic crap out there. Some places obviously put more money and effort into this than others.

Final note: You are one consistent poster, Libtard; even defending your odd passions up front. Good on you.

[libtard]

Originally Posted by Marshal

Final note: You are one consistent poster, Libtard; even defending your odd passions up front. Good on you.

Looks like I hit a nerve. With this Vancouver poster. I point out flaws in BC's highway engineering and it's an "odd passion". But critiquing the width of the silver letters on the podium of the trump building is completely normal

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I spent a week in Quebec City earlier this month and would agree that it has the best system of freeways of any major city in Canada. It was so easy and quick getting anywhere. None of them were very busy. In the Summer, the freeways are quite busy with tourist and Summer traffic though.

Quebec City's system may be the most comprehensive urban freeway network in Canada, but I can't say that it's the best. So many of the roads are so poorly designed. To its credit, most of the network is quite old, but I can't ignore it's idiosyncrasies.

I can't fathom how a design like this (at what's actually a fairly busy interchange) remains:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@46.7629706,-...qNniuHg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1?hl=en

Or why ramps at this interchange that go in different directions join each other for like 50 metres:

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Qu%C3%A...a03!8m2!3d46.8138783!4d-71.2079809?hl=en

Or things like this.... sharp curve to the right, long curve to the left, incoming left entrance, and then moderately sharp curve to the right. I know this interchange was never completed, but it's still poorly designed:

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Qu%C3%A...a03!8m2!3d46.8138783!4d-71.2079809?hl=en

[Innsertnamehere]

http://www.infrastructureontario.ca/Preferred-Proponent-Selected-Highway-427-Expansion/

Preferred Proponent Selected for Highway 427 Expansion

TORONTO -Infrastructure Ontario (IO) and the Ministry of Transportation (MTO) have selected LINK 427 as the preferred proponent to design, build, finance and maintain the Highway 427 Expansion project.

LINK 427's team includes:

Developer: ACS Infrastructure Canada Inc. and Miller Infrastructure
Construction: Dragados Canada Inc., Miller Infrastructure and Bot Infrastructure Ltd.
Design: MMM Group Ltd. and Thurber Engineering Ltd.
Maintenance: ACS Infrastructure Canada Inc. and Miller Infrastructure
The selection of LINK 427 is the result of an open, fair and competitive procurement process overseen by a third party fairness advisor.

IO and MTO will now begin finalizing contract details with LINK 427. The project cost and schedule are expected to be announced in March 2017, with design and construction to begin shortly after.

The Highway 427 Expansion project includes a new 6.6-kilometre extension from Highway 7 to Major Mackenzie Drive and a 4-kilometre road widening from Finch Avenue to Highway 7.

Ontario is making the largest infrastructure investment in hospitals, schools, public transit, roads and bridges in the province's history. To learn more about what's happening in your community, go to Ontario.ca/BuildON.

Quick Facts:

The Highway 427 Expansion is the fourth major highway project delivered by IO and MTO through the Alternative Financing and Procurement (AFP) model. Projects that are delivered using IO's AFP model have a track record of being 96 per cent on budget to date.
Highway 427 and its assets will remain publicly owned and controlled.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by libtard

And engineering is the main problem with BC highways, they are engineered poorly.

Sure, and this is a valid topic of discussion IMO. Critiquing some engineered aspects of a freeway is a necessary discussion in addressing the needs of 99.9% of taxpayers and users of the system.

I agree with some of what you're saying, the pre-loading is a valid issue, as are BC's barrier choices, from ugly jersey barriers, to a complete lack of barriers in places that need them. Driving on the sea to sky for instance has several areas that desperately need a centre median for safety purposes but don't. Steel barriers on the outer lanes rather than jersey barriers seems like a no brainer and I don't know why they are not as frequently used.

Now onto the things I disagree with:

Your "fake" nature scene? Well it's not fake at all, that is right next to burns bog and those logs actually are used by birds in the area, so I'd say it's actually a wonderful use of otherwise fallow space between onramps.

And the supports, while ugly in your view, are necessary in a seismic zone, as the bridge needs to sway independent of the berm. Those are not necessary in the example you provided, Indiana, as it's in the middle of the continent and not at all in a seismic zone. Already we're trending away from engineering commentary and into aesthetics.

Originally Posted by libtard

And before you respond with "well none of that is important", like someone else said its important to some people. The same way people critique the font of the exit signs in a subway station, we critique the many different aspects of road infrastructure and BC gets a C- in my books

For any discipline you can always find a small group of people who will fuss over things that are not really important. I would say the same to the signage folks at subway stations. As long as the message is clearly communicated who cares what font is used or what shape of running man is used, it's minutiae.

I accept your criticism of some of the engineering practices BCMoT uses, I don't understand the decisions either, and if there is a rationale for what they are doing it isn't made clear. But so much of the criticism levied against BC's highways has been completely subjective aesthetics, some of which cannot even be helped such as seismic issues.

As far as my criticism of the BC Highway system, and what I can assume is any objective criticism, it is as follows:

1. BC has been underbuilding it's system for the last 60 years.
2. It is now building large projects to the proper scale but some projects are still victims of cost cutting (SFPR)
3. Strange, possibly improper, use of barriers and lack of barriers.

[dmuzika]

Originally Posted by libtard

Looks like I hit a nerve. With this Vancouver poster. I point out flaws in BC's highway engineering and it's an "odd passion". But critiquing the width of the silver letters on the podium of the trump building is completely normal

Just out of curiosity, with aesthetically pleasing freeways, were you looking for something more like this section of Glenmore Trail?

[Marshal]

Originally Posted by libtard

Looks like I hit a nerve. With this Vancouver poster. I point out flaws in BC's highway engineering and it's an "odd passion". But critiquing the width of the silver letters on the podium of the trump building is completely normal

Hey now, settle down. I have no nerves within your reach. But, let me sooth yours. I was not insulting you. "Odd passions" are good - they spin the world. Am I not here discussing highway structures with you? In the big scheme of things, we're in the same boat. Maybe different ends, but the same boat nonetheless. My 'odd passions' are all over the place, so I'm in no position to put yours down in any way.

So . . . what do you think about the structural design issues I told you about? I agree the arrangement (columns/beam up tight beside abutment) looks plenty odd, but knowing the reason, what do you think now? There are lots of equally odd arrangements in human structures: things that look wrong according to our expectations, but have been done for reasons we don't see until we get an explanation. My favorite is the first hypostyle halls, thousand of years ago, where so much structure (columns) was required to hold up the very short spans they could accomplish, that the 'hall' literally had no usable space beyond the symbolic achievement.

[Metro-One]

It is nice to actually get some more professional perspective on here on such topics as seismic standards and how they relate to built forms.

For the record, while people on this forum will discuss the most trivial design details, such as highway barriers and the font used for station signage, unless something is completely non-functional or in your face the vast majority of people don't notice or care. That doesn't mean it is wrong for you to voice your opinion or care about such details, but it does become a little odd when you obsess on them endlessly.

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

I'll weigh in on this since I grew up out west, have lived outsite Canada and have spent the last 10+ years in Ontario.

BC has a long and storied history of building shitty highways, there's no way about that. With that said they seem to be learning from their mistakes and their last round of expansion has been much better. Let's take a look at their latest projects:

• Golden Ears Bridge: Great approaches, wonderful bridge. My only qualm, would have liked a completely freeflowing interchange with Hghway 1 and the SFPR.
• Highway 1: Well executed and well planned and built with future expansion in mind. Nothing but good things here.
• Pitt River Bridge: Great bridge, with an excellent interchange system on the west bank. Went from constantly on the traffic reports to never being on the traffic reports.
• SFPR: A botch job. Value engineered to the point of absurdity. This is classic old BC freeway building, under-built from day one with limited expansion capacity. Frustrating they blew this one so badly.
• Highway 99 expansion: Plans look near perfect given the corridors configuration. If they execute this according to plan it will be one of the best built stretches of freeway in Canda.

I have an issue with this. Bigger is absolutely not better. The 401 is one of the biggest dumpster fires I have ever seen, full stop. Having lived in Singapore where the island is beautifully served with a fullsome system of well planned 6-8 lane freeways that rarely ever see traffic I would much prefer to that than one 16 lane parking lot.

Given the complex geography of Vancouver, a network of 3+1HOV lane freeways makes infinitely more sense than some hulking freeways that don't really work but look 'impressive'.

Pretty much my feelings as well.

For the Golden Ears Bridge / Expressway, I also personally would have added another interchange or two on the south side to fully connect it as free-flow to the #1. That being said, I have driven it many many times and I have never experienced a traffic jam / delay and have never been delayed getting onto the #1. Overall a really good project with a built form striking similar to a Japanese expressway (especially for the free-flow section from Lougheed to 192nd street. It also has my personal favorite flyover in Western Canada. Driving on it is quite fun.

https://www.google.co.jp/maps/@49.183124...Zn8GksiKnxRwAQp-rJKmQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.co.jp/maps/@49.183175...F6JWY9uWEALSweany7gAw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

In fact, I would say that the Golden Ears Way from Lougheed to this ramp is my favorite stretch of highway in Western Canada. It has everything I like. It is tight, uses plenty of viaducts and ramps (elevated Structures), has a major bridge spanning over 3km, has wonderful texture details on the noise walls and other features, and is kept very clean.

Completely agree with the #1, great stretch of highway now (and this quality is expanding both east and west with new projects that I will post again later today) It is also worth noting that in recent history many of the interchanges in Abbotdford and Chilliwack have also been re-built to modern standards and are ready for additional lanes.

Also agree with the SFPR. It is quite a bizarre project with varying levels of quality. Having finally driven the entire length myself this past summer here are my thoughts west to east:

Section 1: Western terminus (interchange with old highway 17) to just before 80th street intersection. Great free-flow highway with two well built interchanges and several overpasses and underpasses for other intersecting roads. The road is level and there does not seem to be any issues with fill. This section actually reminds me a lot of the highways I drove in Scandinavia.

Section 2: 80th street interchange to east of 91 connector intersection. Bad. 2 traffic lights. The road is not level in areas due to poor fill. Only saving grace is this looks to be the first section to receive a re-build in the near future with interchanges. (but what a waste of money building it twice).

Section 3: East of 91 connector intersection to just east of Tannery Road interchange. Good free-flow highway. Nice use of viaducts and split grade section with great finishings on the retaining walls. Road surface is adequately level.

Section 4: East of Tannery Road interchange to 138th street. Terrible, worst section, so many odd things. First, the traffic light just after the Tannery Road interchange that was suppose to be removed after the interchange opened. Still there. At grade rail crossing. Strange dip under Pattullo Bridge with reduced speed limit. Then two more at grade intersections. The worst part is the horrible dip where the water line runs. This needs to be fixed, even if ti involves the need for a short elevated structure. Now, with this said, some of these issues (all of them I hope...) will be resolved with the construction of the new Pattullo Bridge. At the bare minimum the dip may be removed, the "temporary light" next to the Tannery Interchange will be removed, and one of the two traffic light intersections may become an interchange. To help ensure this, I would recommend writing to the ministry of transportation urging them to resolve these issues in coordination with the construction of the Pattullo Bridge.

Section 5: East of 138th street to just west of 104th Ave. Great Highway. nice smooth ride, again looks like Scandinavia.

Section 6: 104th Ave to highway 1. Another disaster. Should have been interchanges from the get-go as was originally proposed.

in other words, it is a roller coaster of design quality and execution, but there is some light at the end of the tunnel that the entire SFPR will slowly be upgraded to how it should have been built in the first place.

Now for the 99 upgrades, if built as currently shown, also agree it will be among the best stretches of highway in Canada.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Also agree with the SFPR. It is quite a bizarre project with varying levels of quality. Having finally driven the entire length myself this past summer here are my thoughts west to east:

Half-ass building major road projects needs to end. If they don't have the money to do it right all at once do it as a P3 and pay for it over 30 years. I realize some hate P3s but for roads they are great. The huge consortiums who build these types of projects have way more experience than any provincial DOT and they can work much faster building them as well. The 216 in Edmonton and 201 in Calgary are great examples of how much better the pros are than the government. I think they're still fixing the mess on the first leg of the 216 that the government did because it was so under built. It's probably costing a lot to expand than it would have if done correctly to begin with not to mention the huge costs of wasted time sitting in traffic.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

In fact, I would say that the Golden Ears Way from Lougheed to this ramp is my favorite stretch of highway in Western Canada. It has everything I like. It is tight, uses plenty of viaducts and ramps (elevated Structures), has a major bridge spanning over 3km, has wonderful texture details on the noise walls and other features, and is kept very clean.

I think that's kind of telling, seeing as Golden Ears Way is a 12km road of which only 5km of freeway. If that's the best, that's kind of telling, no?

[nname]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

I think that's kind of telling, seeing as Golden Ears Way is a 12km road of which only 5km of freeway. If that's the best, that's kind of telling, no?

Well, the bridge and road is not even part of the highway system to begin with. It's just a regional road at best....

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

I think that's kind of telling, seeing as Golden Ears Way is a 12km road of which only 5km of freeway. If that's the best, that's kind of telling, no?

Actually no, it's not. You people have odd ways of manipulating words.

I clearly stated why I think it is the best stretch of highway in BC (if not Western Canada). A: Extensive use of viaducts and ramps. B: The Bridge itself, very elegant yet stately in design C: The wonderful finishing details, from the eagles on the bridge to the designs on the noise barriers. D: The fact this is all done in a tight urban style footprint.

The length of the section is inconsequential for what I am talking about. Notice I used the qualifier "stretch." This STRETCH of highway has all the design elements I admire in highways. And in this short 5 km stretch you will find more elevated highway structures than any other highway stretch in Western Canada. This is actually true. Outside of this project western Canada does not really do elevated urban style roads.

I admire tight, layered Asian / European highways far more than their American counterparts. Just my personal taste

Just for a comparison, let's say there are two mass transit lines, both are 25 KM long. The first is fully grade separated subway the entire length with decent stations. The second is at grade LRT with so/so stations, except for a 5KM long grade separated elevated section that contains a lovely bridge structure and 2 or 3 beautifully designed stations. Yes, over all the subway with its standard stations are better, but there would be no problem in admitting that the largely at grade LRT has the best stretch of urban railway for that 5KMs. See??

If going for sheer size the #1, the Coqu, and many highways in Alberta are better, but my favorite stretch is still that 5km on the GEW.

[sonysnob]

I've seen pictures of the Golden Ears Bridge, it's a very nice looking bridge.

But it is telling (to me at least) that your favourite stretch of "highway" in BC is an arterial road that has two interchanges on it.

[ssiguy]

Don't hold your breath for any interchanges on the SFPR. Remember the Alex Fraser/HWY#91 still has a stop light on it and is only now going to get an interchange to bring the road up to freeway standards 30 years after it was built.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Don't hold your breath for any interchanges on the SFPR. Remember the Alex Fraser/HWY#91 still has a stop light on it and is only now going to get an interchange to bring the road up to freeway standards 30 years after it was built.

The majority of traffic lights on the 91 were converted to interchanges relatively quickly after its opening.

The 72nd traffic light has remained essentially because the province and the city of Delta were deadlocked in a disagreement regarding the design of the proposed interchange. Annoying little political game I agree, at least now that relic will be replaced.

I feel that the SFPR will follow a similar path. The most pressing intersections will be converted relatively soon to interchanges starting with Sunbury, but one or two will likely linger annoyingly like the 72nd.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

I've seen pictures of the Golden Ears Bridge, it's a very nice looking bridge.

But it is telling (to me at least) that your favourite stretch of "highway" in BC is an arterial road that has two interchanges on it.

Not just BC, Western Canada. I have given my reasons twice so no need to do so again. Over that 5km stretch around 4 km is elevated including arguable the best flyover west of Ontario (screen shots already posted).

So you are right, it is very telling on how basic highways are built in Western Canada that the Golden Ears Way has the most elevated structures of any stretch of highway west of Ontario.

Also bridges are part of of the highways they serve, as are tunnels. Just due to circumstance these are things you don't really find east of the Rockies in Wesrern Canada (even in BC tunnels are few and far between).

So I just happen to find highways that have mega structures such as bridges, viaducts, and tunnels more interesting and impressive than those that are simply wide and long.

Just my opinion, you can have your own. Interested to know what you think is the most impressive / interesting stretch of highway in Western Canada and why. And since we are only talking about stretches, there is no length requirement.

For example, while only a few KMs long, I think the Gardner Expressway is the most interesting highway in Eastern Canada (by far the most urban in all of Canada IMO) and the big sphegetti junction near Pearson Airport is the most impressive interchange in Canada. Overall I feel Montreal has the most impressive highway system given all the bridges, viaducts, and tunnels.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

The majority of traffic lights on the 91 were converted to interchanges relatively quickly after its opening.

The 72nd traffic light has remained essentially because the province and the city of Delta were deadlocked in a disagreement regarding the design of the proposed interchange. Annoying little political game I agree, at least now that relic will be replaced.

I feel that the SFPR will follow a similar path. The most pressing intersections will be converted relatively soon to interchanges starting with Sunbury, but one or two will likely linger annoyingly like the 72nd.

Is the city of Delta paying for any portion of the interchange? I'm surprised the BC government didn't tell them after a reasonable amount of discussion to STFU and to stop hindering a project that impacts a larger region and has rather big economic impacts.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Is the city of Delta paying for any portion of the interchange? I'm surprised the BC government didn't tell them after a reasonable amount of discussion to STFU and to stop hindering a project that impacts a larger region and has rather big economic impacts.

To be honest I am not sure what portion each level is paying, it may fully be the province, I will check with my big re-post of the update soon.

[GreaterMontréal]

I think the Gardner Expressway is the most interesting highway in Eastern Canada (by far the most urban in all of Canada IMO)

to me it's either between the Gardner, Décarie and A-720 Ville-Marie