Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[urbandreamer]

I'm also noticing a surge in French being spoken on the streets of Toronto. My brother has heard many French tourists around Vancouver. All my Canadian cousin's children went to French immersion schools; my American ones learn Spanish.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

The majority of Canada's farmland is owned by Christian fundamentalists: Mennonites, Dutch Reformed/Netherlands, Hutterites, Amish, Scots-Irish Presbyterian, Scottish and German Catholics, Plymouth Brethren, Pentecostal, BIC etc. All across Canada, from Vauxhall AB to Steinbach MB to Enderby BC to Tilsonburg ON this is obvious. Same situation in the thousands of small towns outside of the big cities.

Then there's urban/suburban African & Caribbean Christians, Russian/Ukrainian/Serbian/Romanian
Orthodox Christians, millions of Conservative Italian, Portuguese and Latino RCs, Muslims, Sikhs & Orthodox Jews. Probably the most hardline intolerant/racist people I've met are Orthodox Jews, Dutch Reformed farmers, Conservative Mennonites and Filipino Protestants. This past Friday I got stuck in Friday prayer traffic around the Erb Street mosque: hundreds, if not thousands of cars parked around Westmount & Erb residential streets.

Secularism is an English Canadian (as in WASP) and Quebecois old stock phenomenon.

Certainly a lot of other groups in Canada are very secular even atheist. Japanese and most Chinese regardless of 1st 2nd or long in Canada. Irish and Italian Catholics largely are baptism and Christmas only and ignore the rules in between Catholics. All of this is much less true in the United States though.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Certainly a lot of other groups in Canada are very secular even atheist. Japanese and most Chinese regardless of 1st 2nd or long in Canada. Irish and Italian Catholics largely are baptism and Christmas only and ignore the rules in between Catholics. All of this is much less true in the United States though.

Your average anglo ROCer (whether truly anglo or simply linguistically assimilated) probably isn't much more religious than your average Quebecer but there is nonetheless clearly a different attitude in Quebec vs the ROC vis-à-vis religion.

ROCers are more: religion isn't for me, but no skin off my back if people want to be religious and we should accommodate that as much as possible; besides, it's all gonna decline eventually anyway

Quebecers are more: religion isn't for me, and yes people may be religious but we need to keep an eye on religion so it doesn't come back and take over society again; that's why it's best to keep it a personal, private matter

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You guys are right to point out the demographics of these regions, but a few caveats.

While areas like Renfrew County, the Cornwall region and Cape Breton were not really historically francophone regions, they did have much larger francophone populations in the past. Pembroke which is the main town in Renfrew Country for example had a francophone majority or close to it at one time in the past.

So a lot of these regions have substantial anglophone populations of French origins (but today entirely assimilated) that while they may not be the majority, in some cases may be numerous enough to push Catholicism over the top as the main religion.

I have to say that when I saw the religion map I also noticed that outside of the GTA and a few places with lots of 20th century Catholic immigration (from Italy, Portugal, etc.), it lines up a lot with areas where francophones are or used to be a larger share of the population. I am thinking also of areas like around Georgian Bay (Penetanguishene) north of Toronto, or Welland in the Niagara peninsula.

Areas with large Indigenous populations are also often Catholic due to the history with French Catholic missionaries and even mixing between Indigenous people and French or French Canadian explorers and settlers.

Another factor in Canadian religious demographics is that among people who have a Christian family background but are not religious themselves, those with a Catholic background are a lot more likely to actually self-identify as Catholic even if they're non-religious or even atheist, while those with a Protestant background who are not religious are a lot more likely to self-identify as "no religion" when asked the question about their religious background.

This means that in all census data, people of Catholic background are very overrepresented compared to people of Protestant background.

In Lanark County for example, where the population is 92% white and 70% have Scottish or Irish ancestry while only 15% have French ancestry, Catholic is listed as the largest single religious group, while 35% have "no religion".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Another factor in Canadian religious demographics is that among people who have a Christian family background but are not religious themselves, those with a Catholic background are a lot more likely to actually self-identify as Catholic even if they're non-religious or even atheist, while those with a Protestant background who are not religious are a lot more likely to self-identify as "no religion" when asked the question about their religious background.

This means that in all census data, people of Catholic background are very overrepresented compared to people of Protestant background.

In Lanark County for example, where the population is 92% white and 70% have Scottish or Irish ancestry while only 15% have French ancestry, Catholic is listed as the largest single religious group, while 35% have "no religion".

Does that take "Canadian" ethnic origin into account? I'd guess that unilingual anglophones of lapsed French Canadian origin are pretty likely to identify as having only Canadian ancestry. As likely or maybe more than Heinz 57 anglos are.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Does that take "Canadian" ethnic origin into account? I'd guess that unilingual anglophones of lapsed French Canadian origin are pretty likely to identify as having only Canadian ancestry. As likely or maybe more than Heinz 57 anglos are.

"Canadian" responses fell dramatically in 2021 compared to earlier censuses as they stopped suggesting it as a response in the questionnaire.

It should be noted that people are allowed to write up to 4 responses to the ethnicity question and they're not prorated. If a person writes "Irish", "French", "English", and "German" on their form, they're counted as 1 full person of each of those 4. "Scottish", "Irish", "English", and "French" ancestry combine to be 114%"of Lanark's population. In places like Lanark, where there's probably a fair number of people who might have a single French-Canadian grandparent but are otherwise all of British or Irish stock, it has the effect of overexaggerating the French-Canadian population. I'd be fairly confident asserting that less than 5% of Lanark's population is primarily French-Canadian in origin.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You guys are right to point out the demographics of these regions, but a few caveats.

While areas like Renfrew County, the Cornwall region and Cape Breton were not really historically francophone regions, they did have much larger francophone populations in the past. Pembroke which is the main town in Renfrew Country for example had a francophone majority or close to it at one time in the past.

So a lot of these regions have substantial anglophone populations of French origins (but today entirely assimilated) that while they may not be the majority, in some cases may be numerous enough to push Catholicism over the top as the main religion.

I have to say that when I saw the religion map I also noticed that outside of the GTA and a few places with lots of 20th century Catholic immigration (from Italy, Portugal, etc.), it lines up a lot with areas where francophones are or used to be a larger share of the population. I am thinking also of areas like around Georgian Bay (Penetanguishene) north of Toronto, or Welland in the Niagara peninsula.

Areas with large Indigenous populations are also often Catholic due to the history with French Catholic missionaries and even mixing between Indigenous people and French or French Canadian explorers and settlers.

Interesting also that the few English-speaking pockets of Québec are nonetheless majority Catholic. One exception I spotted on the map was Clarendon in the Outaouais region: it's not just English-speaking, but also majority Protestant. I wonder what sort of affiliation with Québec (or lack thereof) the people over there must have...

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Places like Cornwall, Sudbury and Timmins, while statistically about a quarter to a third francophone, probably have close to 50% of their population that is of French Canadian origin. There are tons of anglophones there with francophone surnames. You see it when you take part in competitions or tournaments with teams from these areas.

While there are no areas of Ottawa where francophones are still a majority, in the eastern parts of the city there are also many areas where people of French Canadian origin (actual francophones plus those assimilated but with French surnames) are close to the majority as well.

Again, it's very noticeable if you take your kids to a hockey tournament or a gymnastics competition and a team from east end Ottawa is there at the same time.

How do these assimilated people feel about Québec and Québec issues? Do they have the same negative attitudes ("Québécois are racists, they ban the veil", "Québec government is oppressing the English language", etc) as other Anglo-Canadians, or do they have a different, more positive outlook on Québec?

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Interesting also that the few English-speaking pockets of Québec are nonetheless majority Catholic.

Because they're mostly Irish and/or Italian.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

One exception I spotted on the map was Clarendon in the Outaouais region: it's not just English-speaking, but also majority Protestant. I wonder what sort of affiliation with Québec (or lack thereof) the people over there must have...

That pocket of Quebec to the west of Gatineau, called the Pontiac region, is mostly English speaking and culturally are attached to the people in Renfrew County in Ontario in a lot of ways.

The most dramatic example is the village of Rapides-des-Joachims, a bit further west than Clarendon, which is about 70% anglophone and the only practical way to access the village is through Ontario - if you want to drive to the next Quebec village down the river without crossing into Ontario it's a 950km drive (it could be "only" 200km if you have an offroad vehicle that can drive down logging trails). The people there get all of their mail from Ontario, they have Ontario phone numbers and get Ontario television (because the only telecom cables that reach the village are routed through Ontario), and their kids go to school in Ontario, despite being in Quebec.

If Quebec ever secedes, they'll probably redraw the border to put that village in Ontario.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

"Canadian" responses fell dramatically in 2021 compared to earlier censuses as they stopped suggesting it as a response in the questionnaire.

It should be noted that people are allowed to write up to 4 responses to the ethnicity question and they're not prorated. If a person writes "Irish", "French", "English", and "German" on their form, they're counted as 1 full person of each of those 4. "Scottish", "Irish", "English", and "French" ancestry combine to be 114%"of Lanark's population. In places like Lanark, where there's probably a fair number of people who might have a single French-Canadian grandparent but are otherwise all of British or Irish stock, it has the effect of overexaggerating the French-Canadian population. I'd be fairly confident asserting that less than 5% of Lanark's population is primarily French-Canadian in origin.

Agreed. I think its neighbour Renfrew County is higher than that though, owing to the history I mentioned and proximity to Quebec - even if the area across the river isn't especially francophone by Quebec standards. There are lots more local notables in Renfrew County who are anglos with French names, either politicians and business owners: Hec Cloutier, Lapointe Motors, Poirier Motors, etc.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

If Quebec ever secedes, they'll probably redraw the border to put that village in Ontario.

Doubtful. There were several similar cases on the Czech-Slovak border, with some villages isolated in one country, and they didn't redraw the border despite the inconvenience when Slovakia seceded in 1993.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

How do these assimilated people feel about Québec and Québec issues? Do they have the same negative attitudes ("Québécois are racists, they ban the veil", "Québec government is oppressing the English language", etc) as other Anglo-Canadians, or do they have a different, more positive outlook on Québec?

I was a francophone outside Quebec living in Anglo-Canada for the first half of my life, and typically people of French Canadian origins who no longer speak French can be the worst in terms of attitudes towards French, francophones and Quebec.

I worked with the public in Ontario for a number of years in an anglophone city with a francophone minority, and often when I'd speak French to someone named "Pierre Brisavoine" if they were anglophone in spite of their name they'd often respond very rudely with a stern "I speak English" or "I don't speak French".

It's understandable I guess. They or their forebears abandoned all that, so they don't like to be reminded of it. And they've probably internalized the idea that nothing of value was lost.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

typically people of French Canadian origins who no longer speak French can be the worst in terms of attitudes towards French, francophones and Quebec.

Why is that? Americans with Italian ancestry are more Italian nationalists than the Italians themselves. Same for people with Irish ancestry.

Originally Posted by Acajack

and often when I'd speak French to someone named "Pierre Brisavoine" if they were anglophone in spite of their name they'd often respond very rudely with a stern "I speak English" or "I don't speak French".

Insecurity. They are probably often the object of misunderstandings, doubts about their identity, due to their names, and don't like it (just as some Black Canadian wouldn't liked to be asked repeatedly in daily life "where are you from?" I suppose). But that's different from disliking Québec or Francophone culture.

Originally Posted by Acajack

And they've probably internalized the idea that nothing of value was lost.

That's a bit puzzling. It's almost like French regional attitudes from the 1930s, or 1950s at the latest, when people whose families had abandoned local regional languages also thought that nothing of value was lost, that French was the language of progress (and money, more importantly), and hated being reminded that their ancestors spoke some patois.

Nowadays though it's totally different. People whose ancestors spoke some regional languages usually openly lament the fact the language wasn't transmitted, they see it as a sad loss (even if they of course will not seriously act to recover the language, it's more of a performative regret). It's strange that Anglophones of French Canadian ancestry wouldn't have the same mindset in 2023, and would still have attitudes coming straight out of the 1930s...

[1overcosc]

It should be noted that surnames only really say what your "paternal line" is. One dad's dad's dad's dad's dad is only 3.125% of their ancestry but accounts for 100% of their surname. You can have someone who is maybe 5% French in ethnic origin with a surname like Charlebois; or conversely have someone who is 75% French in ethnic origin whose surname is Smith.

Another factor is that surnames can.. change. There are some people who in fact have a francophone paternal line but whose surnames are not French, because some ancestor made the choice to change their name to hide their origins. That actually describes me, personally. My paternal line great-great grandfather was francophone but anglicized his name when he married a British woman.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

It should be noted that surnames only really say what your "paternal line" is. One dad's dad's dad's dad's dad is only 3.125% of their ancestry but accounts for 100% of their surname. You can have someone who is maybe 5% French in ethnic origin with a surname like Charlebois; or conversely have someone who is 75% French in ethnic origin whose surname is Smith.

Not quite, because of endogamy. Until 50 years ago, people tended to marry within their community. So if some 50 y/o guy has a French last name, I would assume there's a high likelihood that person has at least 50% French ancestry. And if that person is 20 y/o, then I would assume that person has at least 25% French ancestry.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Why is that? Americans with Italian ancestry are more Italian nationalists than the Italians themselves. Same for people with Irish ancestry.


Insecurity. They are probably often the object of misunderstandings, doubts about their identity, due to their names, and don't like it (just as some Black Canadian wouldn't liked to be asked repeatedly in daily life "where are you from?" I suppose). But that's different from disliking Québec or Francophone culture.


That's a bit puzzling. It's almost like French regional attitudes from the 1930s, or 1950s at the latest, when people whose families had abandoned local regional languages also thought that nothing of value was lost, that French was the language of progress (and money, more importantly), and hated being reminded that their ancestors spoke some patois.

Nowadays though it's totally different. People whose ancestors spoke some regional languages usually openly lament the fact the language wasn't transmitted, they see it as a sad loss (even if they of course will not seriously act to recover the language, it's more of a performative regret). It's strange that Anglophones of French Canadian ancestry wouldn't have the same mindset in 2023, and would still have attitudes coming straight out of the 1930s...

I think it's probably because it's still an "active issue" in the country they are living in, and also because the identity they have adopted has an oppositional relationship with the identity they left behind.

In the case of regional languages in hexagonal France, none of them really challenges the dominance of French in any region of the country, unlike French which does challenge and dominate English in a large part of Canada.

In France, the battle is basically over. In Canada, it isn't.

Note that Franco-Americans of French Canadian descent (ie most Franco-Americans) in the US often have way more of an admirative relationship with French in Canada and Quebec. While they generally don't speak French, they'll often say that Quebec is on the right track to protect its language. In a sense, they're a bit like the North American Italians and Irish you mentioned. The cause is a distant, romantic one. Not something they experience in everyday life.

Of course, in the US the battle for French is also "over". So for example you have Franco-American associations where most everything takes place in English. You can be leader or spokesperson for a Franco-American community and not speak any French at all. This is unthinkable in Canada, even in provinces like Newfoundland or Alberta where to be involved with the French-origin community, you need to speak French. Hence why we use the word francophone which implies speaking the language.

[vanatox]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

That pocket of Quebec to the west of Gatineau, called the Pontiac region, is mostly English speaking and culturally are attached to the people in Renfrew County in Ontario in a lot of ways.

The Pontiac is 60% anglo/40% franco. Pretty much the same linguistic split as in the West Island. But with a much lower population (less than 15 000) over a much larger territory.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Doubtful. There were several similar cases on the Czech-Slovak border, with some villages isolated in one country, and they didn't redraw the border despite the inconvenience when Slovakia seceded in 1993.

Tinkering with borders based on ethnicity is extremely dangerous and perilous, in addition to being covered by the Canadian Constitution: the borders of a province can't be changed without its consent. Of course, Quebec loses that privilege when it ceases to be a province of Canada.

Jacques Parizeau used to say: before independence, it's unconstitutional, and after independence, it's too late.

That's not completely accurate, as borders would almost certainly be a topic for discussion during negotiations. How far they would go I am not sure.

Not sure that Clarendon or even the Pontiac region would be top of mind in those discussions, regardless.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by vanatox

The Pontiac is 60% anglo/40% franco. Pretty much the same linguistic split as in the West Island. But with a much lower population (less than 15 000) over a much larger territory.

But with a million times fewer immigrants (allophones) than the West Island!

A book on the history of francophones in the Pontiac:

https://www.renaud-bray.com/livres_produ...nne+entente(les),bouvier,+luc,289070002x

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by vanatox

The Pontiac is 60% anglo/40% franco. Pretty much the same linguistic split as in the West Island. But with a much lower population (less than 15 000) over a much larger territory.

There's a geographic divide within the Pontiac. The central area around Fort-Coulange is more francophone and the eastern (around Shawville) and western (around Sheenboro) parts are more anglophone. Shawville is around 80%-90% anglophone.