PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[MAF1968]

I was stationed at 4th and Girard in the early 90's when the NoLibs transformation started. I still wish I bought just one piece of land there. I just spent 3 years near Kens and Somerset. It is the most insane area I've ever worked in. Yes, the developers will eventually win and transform the areas near the El stops but Kens & Somerset will not go without a fight. To many nuts jobs to move out. The drug trade will continue as long as people flock there to buy. The 24/7 police presence at "D" & Cambria only pushes them to "C" & Indiana. It's great to see people trying to make a difference and make the living conditions better. Just don't be surprised at how hard it will be to get the job done. I now work in Frankford and also serve Mayfair and its a damn shame how these once great neighborhoods are going down the tubes. This is my 1st post on here. I'll try and contribute when I can. Mike Foley

[Insoluble]

Originally Posted by McBane

I certainly recognize that Broad Street is gaining momentum. I'm only saying that the area roughly between 13th and 15th streets has developed more slowly than the neighborhoods directly to the east and west.

Here's one sorry stretch of Broad that's just blocks from $750,000 homes to the east (Bella Vista) and west (Grad Hosp). And as you get further from Broad, closer to the rivers, it only gets nicer. I'm sure there's plenty of explanations.

And I'm not trying to dig Broad Street. It's just an interesting observation.

Originally Posted by MikeNigh

I think it's because of subway access. Most of the city is poor and the poor can easily get to anywhere with subway access.

The subway access theory may apply to North Broad (I really don't know that area as well) but just doesn't line up with reality along South Broad. Having taken the BSL line to work off and on for the past decade or so, I can tell you that the number of middle class commuters on the BSL along south broad vastly outnumbers any other demographic during rush hour. The BSL is definitely a commodity.

But more than that I think there is a much more obvious explanation for the lack of gentrification along South Broad. If you look at the barren stretch of S Broad that McBane linked to above, the thing that really stands out is that all the underdeveloped lots are huge. It's not like a small time rehabber could go in and convert that lot with the Popeye's to a nice new home or anything. Any development of those massive lots would take a large developer. It's a lot easier for small time rehabbers to get in and upgrade older rowhomes. So the large lots on Broad street languish. Broad Street just so happens to have a larger concentration of these larger lots.

The same scenario can be seen to a lesser extent along Washington Ave. (which has no Subway, so that clearly isn't the cause). Washington Ave was a barrier to gentrification for a while, and in many ways on the East side of broad it completely skipped over the blocks surrounding Washington. There's a bit of a walk between the lower blocks of Bella Vista and Queen Village and the upper blocks of East Passyunk Ave and Pensport. Washington Ave also just so happens to have a lot of very large lots on both sides in this area.

I'll also mention that Point Breeze gentrification did actually buck the trend here. Point Breeze started gentrifying in the blocks closer to Broad Street and Washington Ave first.

EDIT: Took too long to write this post apparently, Tlphila made the exact same point about the mega lots while I was in the middle of writing this

[Tlphila]

Originally Posted by Insoluble

The subway access theory may apply to North Broad (I really don't know that area as well) but just doesn't line up with reality along South Broad. Having taken the BSL line to work off and on for the past decade or so, I can tell you that the number of middle class commuters on the BSL along south broad vastly outnumbers any other demographic during rush hour. The BSL is definitely a commodity.

But more than that I think there is a much more obvious explanation for the lack of gentrification along South Broad. If you look at the barren stretch of S Broad that McBane linked to above, the thing that really stands out is that all the underdeveloped lots are huge. It's not like a small time rehabber could go in and convert that lot with the Popeye's to a nice new home or anything. Any development of those massive lots would take a large developer. It's a lot easier for small time rehabbers to get in and upgrade older rowhomes. So the large lots on Broad street languish. Broad Street just so happens to have a larger concentration of these larger lots.

The same scenario can be seen to a lesser extent along Washington Ave. (which has no Subway, so that clearly isn't the cause). Washington Ave was a barrier to gentrification for a while, and in many ways on the East side of broad it completely skipped over the blocks surrounding Washington. There's a bit of a walk between the lower blocks of Bella Vista and Queen Village and the upper blocks of East Passyunk Ave and Pensport. Washington Ave also just so happens to have a lot of very large lots on both sides in this area.

I'll also mention that Point Breeze gentrification did actually buck the trend here. Point Breeze started gentrifying in the blocks closer to Broad Street and Washington Ave first.

EDIT: Took too long to write this post apparently, Tlphila made the exact same point about the mega lots while I was in the middle of writing this

Haha, we are just on point man

[br323206]

In addition to Broad Street having a lot of large lots, it is also very wide. You look at the streets around the El in the River Wards and they have narrow streets all around. That makes those neighborhoods perfect for small-scale rowhouse projects. You're not going to see that as much on Broad Street. If I'm going to pay a half million or a million for a luxury rowhouse, I don't want it facing a highway. But as the areas around the BSL get hotter the big apartment projects that are perfect for a wider street will really take off.

[McBane]

Great points! The "big streets/big parcels" theory seems to make sense. I suppose you could take it further and say that the lack of development along Broad Street also negatively impacted adjacent parallel streets? Another important factor is the pattern of gentrification.

In Fairmount for example, the catalyst for development emanated from the Parkway/Art Museum area, so naturally it was the western end of Fairmount that got gentrified first and only recently we're seeing development move to the blocks east of 19th and towards Broad (Francisville).

[br323206]

Originally Posted by McBane

Great points! The "big streets/big parcels" theory seems to make sense. I suppose you could take it further and say that the lack of development along Broad Street also negatively impacted adjacent parallel streets? Another important factor is the pattern of gentrification.

In Fairmount for example, the catalyst for development emanated from the Parkway/Art Museum area, so naturally it was the western end of Fairmount that got gentrified first and only recently we're seeing development move to the blocks east of 19th and towards Broad (Francisville).

Yea, I think you're right. In South Philly, east of Broad, we see Passyunk Avenue and it's restaurant scene/walkability as a catalyst.

[relnahe]

Originally Posted by Londonee

This is a good point.

Does anyone know or understand WaWa's shift BACK into Center City over the last few years? There was a time (like 4 years ago) where they couldn't sell/shutter their Center City businesses fast enough to funnel their money into their Suburban Super Pumper stations - which I found annoying and their excuse at the time (quality control), lame.

Now suddenly they're back in town with a vengeance - brand new stores, high profile locations, renovations - a 180degree shift and rededication to downtown. Younger management that took over perhaps? I'd be curious to understand the reasons behind this reversal.

Probably after seeing 7-11 go up like gangbusters as soon as they started shuttering locations all over the city. There is like a 7-11 on every other corner now.

[tsarstruck]

Originally Posted by br323206

In addition to Broad Street having a lot of large lots, it is also very wide. You look at the streets around the El in the River Wards and they have narrow streets all around. That makes those neighborhoods perfect for small-scale rowhouse projects. You're not going to see that as much on Broad Street. If I'm going to pay a half million or a million for a luxury rowhouse, I don't want it facing a highway. But as the areas around the BSL get hotter the big apartment projects that are perfect for a wider street will really take off.

Speaking of, the development at the old Big Boys Toys seems to be going forward. The area around Broad and Washington is finally having its moment. From SBSNA:

111 South Broad Street (Civic Design Review) - The application is for a new 6-story structure that includes commercial space (1st floor), residential lobby (1st floor), (13) off-street parking spaces, (3) loft Spaces (1st floor), (50) residential dwelling units (floors 2-6), roof deck, and a green roof. Zoning = CMX-3 (Commercial Mixed-Use)

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by McBane

In Fairmount for example, the catalyst for development emanated from the Parkway/Art Museum area, so naturally it was the western end of Fairmount that got gentrified first and only recently we're seeing development move to the blocks east of 19th and towards Broad (Francisville).

But to be fair, although Fairmount was much more working class, it was always a solid, fully occupied, stable neighborhood. The same can't be said for Francisville, which experienced population loss and some decay.

[blart]

Thursday, 4-14. 2nd & New

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by tsarstruck

Speaking of, the development at the old Big Boys Toys seems to be going forward. The area around Broad and Washington is finally having its moment. From SBSNA:

111 South Broad Street (Civic Design Review) - The application is for a new 6-story structure that includes commercial space (1st floor), residential lobby (1st floor), (13) off-street parking spaces, (3) loft Spaces (1st floor), (50) residential dwelling units (floors 2-6), roof deck, and a green roof. Zoning = CMX-3 (Commercial Mixed-Use)

Do you mean 1110 S. Broad Street?

[summersm343]

Johnson sponsors zoning change for Lincoln Square project at Broad & Washington

http://planphilly.com/articles/2016/04/1...ncoln-square-project-at-broad-washington

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by Milksteak

Skipping over Frankford?

Gotta go where your users are moving to.

More to the point, the idea here is that as the main drug markets are priced off of under the El, there are three directions for them to go:

1. Further into the poor nabe, i.e. Fairhill. The problem with this, of course, is that your ability to distribute to your user base declines drastically by the time you leave the range of an easy walk from the El.

2. The drug markets centralize across the river, in Camden. Camden's prices remain a generation behind Philly's. But even there, Cooper development is pushing the main markets away from Walter Rand. Perhaps Ferry Avenue might be a hotspot then?

3. Near your main userbase. Don't forget, the urban drug markets service an urban clientele. Suburban drug dealers can be a lot more discreet. Most people priced out of Fishtown over the past decade wound up in Mayfair. Particularly if urban redevelopment pushes all the way up to Frankford (and if it's already hitting Harrowgate -- Frankford won't be that far behind), the market will need to be a place of excellent PT access while still being somewhat out of the way. Cottman and Frankford?

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Woods Square - 2621 Frankford Ave

178 apartments. Ground floor retail



https://www.facebook.com/eastkensingtonn...809361/10154066379264362/?type=3&fref=nf

Very excited about this project. Frankford Ave is quickly becoming one of the coolest corridors in the city. It’s hard to believe a project like this could go up at Frankford near Lehigh Ave…..shows just how far down the development is spreading. Never would have thought this would be possible a decade ago.

[Sgalla04]

Anything interesting in this article about the growth in Manayunk? I'm not a subscriber, but figure it is relevant to our lowrise discussion.

http://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/...manayunk-seeing-unbelievable-growth.html

[Tlphila]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

Very excited about this project. Frankford Ave is quickly becoming one of the coolest corridors in the city. It’s hard to believe a project like this could go up at Frankford near Lehigh Ave…..shows just how far down the development is spreading. Never would have thought this would be possible a decade ago.

It's amazing! Once this project is completed and prices in the immediate area jump accordingly, I think you'll see the hipster set priced out of Fishtown heading north. Who would have ever thought you'd see pressure starting to push up against Kensington & Somerset...

[Milksteak]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

Gotta go where your users are moving to.

More to the point, the idea here is that as the main drug markets are priced off of under the El, there are three directions for them to go:

1. Further into the poor nabe, i.e. Fairhill. The problem with this, of course, is that your ability to distribute to your user base declines drastically by the time you leave the range of an easy walk from the El.

2. The drug markets centralize across the river, in Camden. Camden's prices remain a generation behind Philly's. But even there, Cooper development is pushing the main markets away from Walter Rand. Perhaps Ferry Avenue might be a hotspot then?

3. Near your main userbase. Don't forget, the urban drug markets service an urban clientele. Suburban drug dealers can be a lot more discreet. Most people priced out of Fishtown over the past decade wound up in Mayfair. Particularly if urban redevelopment pushes all the way up to Frankford (and if it's already hitting Harrowgate -- Frankford won't be that far behind), the market will need to be a place of excellent PT access while still being somewhat out of the way. Cottman and Frankford?

You sure you aren't a drug kingpin? Sounds like you have a lucrative business plan

[tsarstruck]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Do you mean 1110 S. Broad Street?

1111. Goofed on the copy and paste.

[tsarstruck]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

3. Near your main userbase. Don't forget, the urban drug markets service an urban clientele. Suburban drug dealers can be a lot more discreet.

That's not necessarily true. A significant portion fo Camden's heroin trade is suburban.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by Tlphila

It's amazing! Once this project is completed and prices in the immediate area jump accordingly, I think you'll see the hipster set priced out of Fishtown heading north. Who would have ever thought you'd see pressure starting to push up against Kensington & Somerset...

The thought of Summerset development blows my mind.

Hipsters are already moving northward into East Kensington, where I live. Our neighborhood association and zoning meetings are literally split between hipsters and working professionals. Very few long term residents come. Truly, all the longer term residents around me have moved away due to all the construction, rising rents, taxes, etc.

I’m constantly blown away by all the construction in E.K. The houses go up so quickly and entire blocks that used to look so shady are suddenly looking beautiful.