Highways in Canada

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

Smart Tracks started before the government's new investment plan in infrastructures. bad timing ?

Tory ran on the promise to build it. Just like all elections, politicians promise things yet have no idea where the money will come for it. Smartrack is not overly bad, in my view.

[Innsertnamehere]

Smartrack has the required federal funding, its the municipal portion that needs funding still. That is what this is proposed to do, as well as funding a whole lot of other things. SmartTrack needs something like $1.5 billion (including the Eglinton west LRT), this is supposed to provide closer to $5 billion..

Also SmartTrack has now degraded into essentially just 6 city funded GO stations, and an extension of the Eglinton LRT to the airport.

[1overcosc]

Most of the benefits from SmartTrack will be realized through GO RER which the province has already fully funded.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Ontario is broke.
Toronto is broke.

The citizens demand more transit and roads, but do not want to see their taxes go up or pay tolls.

I am at a loss.

Toronto and Ontario are not broke. Ontario is almost balancing its budget. But I do agree about how many want everything but they don't want to pay for it.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Toronto and Ontario are not broke. Ontario is almost balancing its budget. But I do agree about how many want everything but they don't want to pay for it.

Toronto has raised the TTC fare. They are now talking of tolling highways.

Ontario keeps cutting services and delaying projects.

Both of those sounds like they are broke. Just because you balance the budget, doesn't mean you paid for the services you should be.

[sonysnob]

Ontario's debt to GDP ratio is the highest of any non nation-state in the world. At some point, Ontarians are going to have to bite the bullet and deal with that issue.

http://business.financialpost.com/news/e...lds-most-indebted-sub-sovereign-borrower

[jmt18325]

Japan's debt is something like 230% of GDP. I think Ontario will be okay as long as they can get back to a point where the economy grows faster than debt in the medium term.

[urbandreamer]

Tory's Toll is just a clandestine way for real estate developers to get their land back in the green belt to boost home ownership amongst millennials. Barely getting by in Toronto, many will flee the city for new cheaper homes in the suburbs of Vaughan, Halton, K-W, Guelph, Durham etc.

Bonus: the wealthy downtown elite will have more room to drive their Teslas.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

Ontario's debt to GDP ratio is the highest of any non nation-state in the world. At some point, Ontarians are going to have to bite the bullet and deal with that issue.

http://business.financialpost.com/news/e...lds-most-indebted-sub-sovereign-borrower

Originally Posted by jmt18325

Japan's debt is something like 230% of GDP. I think Ontario will be okay as long as they can get back to a point where the economy grows faster than debt in the medium term.

So... right now, Ontario is Broke.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So... right now, Ontario is Broke.

1. Health care is expensive - it has jumped from ~36% of the total provincial budget to ~43%. Spending has jumped from ~$22 billion to ~$50 billlion per year. This is the same problem other provinces are facing. It is a damned intractable problem too.

2. The City of Toronto (and surrounding regions) has seen significant investment in transit during the tenure of the current provincial government. The Yonge line extension ($3.2b), the Eglinton Crosstown (~$5.5b), the Union-Pearson express (~$500m) amongst others. Not to mention the planned Scarborough subway and new LRT line on Finch.

http://top100projects.ca/2016filters/?rid=&fid=&pid=7&isid=5&ssid=&lid=&oid=&kpid=&yr=2016

If you exclude the Confederation Line (Stage 1 & 2) in Ottawa and the Waterloo Region LRT, the list is dominated by GTA projects. The province has put its money where its mouth is.

There has to be a line drawn somewhere - how much is enough?

3. The province is (slowly - too slowly for my tastes) getting its financial house in order. Ontario's debt-to-GDP is about ~40%, when combined with a federal debt-to GDP of about ~35%, makes for a total debt-to-GDP (for Ontario residents) of about ~75%. Not good, but nowhere near Japan levels.

At least Ontario is growing - Japan's population is aging and in decline. Other European countries (Italy, most of Eastern Europe and soon to be Germany) are facing similar problems - a declining population that requires expensive health care.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Toronto has raised the TTC fare. They are now talking of tolling highways.

Ontario keeps cutting services and delaying projects.

Both of those sounds like they are broke. Just because you balance the budget, doesn't mean you paid for the services you should be.

When the Harper Conservatives were in power they cut some services and delayed a lot of projects. They were even running a deficit but nobody said that Canada was broke.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by wave46

1. Health care is expensive - it has jumped from ~36% of the total provincial budget to ~43%. Spending has jumped from ~$22 billion to ~$50 billlion per year. This is the same problem other provinces are facing. It is a damned intractable problem too.

2. The City of Toronto (and surrounding regions) has seen significant investment in transit during the tenure of the current provincial government. The Yonge line extension ($3.2b), the Eglinton Crosstown (~$5.5b), the Union-Pearson express (~$500m) amongst others. Not to mention the planned Scarborough subway and new LRT line on Finch.

http://top100projects.ca/2016filters/?rid=&fid=&pid=7&isid=5&ssid=&lid=&oid=&kpid=&yr=2016

If you exclude the Confederation Line (Stage 1 & 2) in Ottawa and the Waterloo Region LRT, the list is dominated by GTA projects. The province has put its money where its mouth is.

There has to be a line drawn somewhere - how much is enough?

3. The province is (slowly - too slowly for my tastes) getting its financial house in order. Ontario's debt-to-GDP is about ~40%, when combined with a federal debt-to GDP of about ~35%, makes for a total debt-to-GDP (for Ontario residents) of about ~75%. Not good, but nowhere near Japan levels.

At least Ontario is growing - Japan's population is aging and in decline. Other European countries (Italy, most of Eastern Europe and soon to be Germany) are facing similar problems - a declining population that requires expensive health care.

Originally Posted by Loco101

When the Harper Conservatives were in power they cut some services and delayed a lot of projects. They were even running a deficit but nobody said that Canada was broke.

Both of you have proven that Ontario IS broke.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

Ontario's debt to GDP ratio is the highest of any non nation-state in the world. At some point, Ontarians are going to have to bite the bullet and deal with that issue.

http://business.financialpost.com/news/e...lds-most-indebted-sub-sovereign-borrower

This is a very commonly cited line but it really means nothing, as when Ontario's debt is viewed in the proper context, it's not nearly as alarming.

It's not that crazy that it has the largest debt of any sub-sovereign government in the world.. because the Government of Ontario is quite possibly the largest sub-sovereign government in the world! While several American states have more people, in the US states have far fewer responsibilities than Canadian provinces do. Ontario collects $100 billion a year in taxes, while the State of Texas, despite having more than twice the population of Ontario, only collects about $55 billion a year.

Canadian provinces are like countries. They perform most of the task of governance and make up the majority of public spending. The federal government is much less visible and prominent in the lives of Canadians than our provinces are. Other large federations, like Germany, the US, etc. are not like this.

As anyone knows, deciding whether an amount of debt is bad only makes sense relative to your income. If a middle class family had a million dollars of debt, that's bad.. but if a billionaire had a million dollars of debt, that's barely noticeable. And by this measure Ontario isn't even first in Canada--Quebec has considerably more debt per capita than Ontario does.

A quick comparison to other countries, using Ontario's per capita share of the federal debt:
-Ontario: ~60% debt to GDP ratio
-Germany: 80%
-United Kingdom: 90%
-California, using per capita share of US federal debt: ~110%
-Italy: 130%
-Greece: 175%
-Japan: 230%

We're doing just fine.

Ontario's budget is now almost balanced as the deficit has fallen dramatically in the past 3 years (from $12 billion in 2013 to $3 billion today) and we've now hit the point where the debt to GDP ratio is now falling. There is no budget crisis in Ontario anymore.

So to conclude: Ontario is not broke.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by jmt18325

Japan's debt is something like 230% of GDP. I think Ontario will be okay as long as they can get back to a point where the economy grows faster than debt in the medium term.

Which we have. Starting with 2016-17, Ontario's debt to GDP ratio is falling and it is projected to continue falling for at least the next 5 years.

Our finances are now in order, and we did without any substantial alterations to taxes and service levels. Something we should be proud of.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Both of you have proven that Ontario IS broke.

The Government of Ontario is not broke. Argentina in 2001 was broke. Russia in 1998 was broke. Zimbabwe is broke. Broke is when you can no longer obtain financing for operations from creditors and you have no more domestic ability to raise revenue. Thus, the government suspends spending or does the hyperinflation thing (if you are a national government).

Now - that being said - the Government of Ontario no longer has carte blanche to spend without regards to reality. If you want to call that broke, I guess you could, but it seems disingenuous and inaccurate. So, while Alberta still has the fiscal ability to run multi-billion dollar deficits, Ontario lacks that capability now. That's pretty much the story with most of the western world these days. Now come the harder choices. Such is life - there is no such thing as a free lunch.

[GreaterMontréal]

And by this measure Ontario isn't even first in Canada--Quebec has considerably more debt per capita than Ontario does.

but Quebec has a lot of assets that they can sell if they're in trouble. $100B+

[FrAnKs]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

but Quebec has a lot of assets that they can sell if they're in trouble. $100B+

Penses-tu vraiment qu'on va vendre Hydro-Québec ?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by wave46

The Government of Ontario is not broke. Argentina in 2001 was broke. Russia in 1998 was broke. Zimbabwe is broke. Broke is when you can no longer obtain financing for operations from creditors and you have no more domestic ability to raise revenue. Thus, the government suspends spending or does the hyperinflation thing (if you are a national government).

Now - that being said - the Government of Ontario no longer has carte blanche to spend without regards to reality. If you want to call that broke, I guess you could, but it seems disingenuous and inaccurate. So, while Alberta still has the fiscal ability to run multi-billion dollar deficits, Ontario lacks that capability now. That's pretty much the story with most of the western world these days. Now come the harder choices. Such is life - there is no such thing as a free lunch.

Ontario has reduced hospital beds, shut down railway service, cancelled construction projects, ...

When you start not being able to pay the bills, and you start reducing current costs, you are broke.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Ontario has reduced hospital beds, shut down railway service, cancelled construction projects, ...

When you start not being able to pay the bills, and you start reducing current costs, you are broke.

No, that means a government is making choices about service levels as is prudent to the situation. I didn't go out and buy coffee this morning, but I'm far from broke.

As for hospital funding, it was never cut. It was frozen for a while and now it's climbing again. Just last week the government just gave out an additional $200 million to hospitals on top of the budget allocations.

The fall economic statement revealed that Ontario has billions more of tax revenues than expected... 2017 may very well end up being a surplus budget.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Ontario has reduced hospital beds, shut down railway service, cancelled construction projects, ...

When you start not being able to pay the bills, and you start reducing current costs, you are broke.

No, you are not.

In a world of finite resources, you have to choose what is a priority. I could have a Mercedes, but my Mazda works just as well. I could have a 3000 sq. ft. mansion, but hey, this 1000 sq. ft. townhouse works for what I need. I could work 3 jobs and work 80-100 hours a week to pay for a hedonistic lifestyle, but I think that's a miserable way to live.

The Ontario government could raise taxes and spend more (to a point) - plenty of European jurisdictions have higher tax rates than here. Or it could control spending and hold the line on taxes. Or, it still can take the politically easy way out (for awhile) and borrow money, keep taxes low and spend like a drunken sailor (like the US federal government, for instance).

To their credit, the current government is embracing the idea of pay as you go.